About reducing mobility

Phoenix Point Game Feedback
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As “doing something about mobility” was specifically mentioned in the Q&A, I just want to present more clearly some ideas on the subject that was discussed in this thread A proposal on how to rebalance skills

The problem is that PP soldiers can have too much mobility. Some maths to illustrate this:

The tiles that can be moved at the cost of 1 AP is soldier’s speed/4. So a soldier with speed 16 can move 4 tiles per AP, or 16 tiles if he uses all the AP for movement.

If the same soldier uses dash to move, he can move 12 tiles (16 * 3/4) per AP, or 48 tiles if he uses all the AP for dash movement.

Now, if the same soldier is frenzied when he dashes he can move 12 *1.5 = 18 tiles, or 72 tiles if he uses all the APs for dash movement.

That’s already arguably too much, given that most maps are around 45 tiles in length.

And that’s with a completely unoptimized build, of average speed.

Take a build with top speed (25), speed leg mutation (+5 to speed, so 25+5=30) and light body armor (+2, so 30+2 = 32), add frenzy (32 * 1.5 = 48) and make him dash: he will move 48 * 3/4 = 36 tiles with a single AP (and 144 tiles using all APs)! That means that on most maps the player can arbitrarily choose any spot and teleport the soldier there at the cost of 1 AP and 4 WP, or 2 AP 8 WP max.

(And this is without taking into account blood lust buff…)

This is the “too much mobility problem”, because it makes distances absolutely irrelevant for the player.

One possible solution is to cap speed (for example, at 20) and have frenzy add + 10 to speed, instead of +50% to speed.

So a soldier with 20 speed can move, with a single dash, 15 tiles (20 * 3/4), or 60 tiles with 4 dashes, and being frenzied or wearing light armor will not make him any faster, but having a speed above 20 will allow him to move at top speed while wearing heavy armor.

Frenzy and light armor then become alternative means to increase mobility for soldiers that have lower speed.

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You forgot two perks that give +2 speed each. :crazy_face:
=> 39 tiles with a single AP

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So 2 blocks in 10 seconds whilst wearing armour and carrying heavy gear.

Sounds reasonable, I’ve been known to do that myself on occasion, it’s normally after a good few pints mind - in fact some nights I’ve managed to travel the whole way home and it’s been as if no time at all has passed. :wink:

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Well, 60 tiles in one turn can be thought of as 60 metres in 10 seconds.

6m per second is not too unreasonable:

http://www.bluebulbprojects.com/measureofthings/results.php?comp=speed&unit=ms&amt=6&sort=pr&p=1

And you can even think of each tile as being less than 1 meter…

In any case, it’s the kind of suspension of desbelief required when watching most action movies, perfectly acceptable for a science fiction setting, IMO.

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or just simply put cooldown on all such abilities… other similar games uses cooldowns for same reason and it just work… if single turn is 10s of realtime, then you really shouldnt be able to activate Dash 4 times…

Radical thought - maybe limit the use of any abilities to single one per turn… so game would become more tactical, player would have to think what he actually wants to use, instead of spawning synergizing abilities for insane kill rates…

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It may make sense to use accelerated animation when using jerk-type skills.

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That’s the way I have been playing on my last playthrough and I liked it, but it’s definitely not for everyone.

Also, doesn’t really take care of this specific problem, IMO: 36+ tiles for a single dash, even if only one dash per turn is possible, still seems too much.

Unless taking a different approach that I have also suggested elsewhere, which is to limit total number of tiles a soldier can run each turn. So, for example, set it at some multiple of the soldier’s speed (including buffs from armor) (e.g. 30 x 1.5 = 45), so the soldier can run, e.g. 36 with a single dash, but for the remainder of the turn can only move 9 tiles.

Edit: typos

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Not so radical. :slight_smile:

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And suggested on many other threads. Some players like it, some players hate it.

I’m all for it, 'cos it makes you think about how to combine your squad’s skills, rather than simply spamming Dash & Rapid Fire over & over again. I - and I believe Voland - have been self-limiting ourselves to playing the game like this for a while now, and we both find it much more challenging & enjoyable than the OP Skillfest we currently have as the natural game state.

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That is true. I think the way to do this would be to have it as a custom option at the start of the game regardless of difficulty, because we already know that most players (and for many different reasons) would not be happy playing like this.

For me it’s similar to playing ironman mode in FXcoms: I really don’t see a point in playing these games unless on ironman mode, but most players would not be happy if forced to play this way.

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Except for quick aim that I use twice to do 2 shots with a sniper, I can’t think of a skill that I use more than once per soldier/turn.
Some abilities like rally & electric reinforcement I limit to 1 per turn.

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I’m also keeping to only one quick aim and I’m finding that it makes snipers more interesting to play - it breaks the two shots with SR and then free OW with pistol (unless sniper is also assault with RF and expects to get shot at) protocol.

Anyway, I’m wondering: is it just me who sees a problem with mobility even when dash is limited to one use per turn? Has anyone else experimented with very high mobility builds?

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I have played with a team that had no soldier dashing (full heavy + technician) and it went great.
Probably because such a team doesn’t need to alpha strike all that much.
In FiraXcom, you can only move 7-8 tiles if you still want to shoot afterwards. There you basically decide where to teleport and strike. Not much tactic involved.
I find the first few missions more interesting because you need to plan how you are going to approach the crabs. Enemy mobility is also too big.

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Yeah, but that combo probably needs a nerf :slightly_smiling_face:.

Seriously though, I’m curious - under what circumstances could the Pandas actually deal some damage to your soldiers?

I think the mobility issue is far more complex than it seems. For example, FXcom battles are underpinned by the pod mechanic and the time counters (in EW meld cannisters). Before EW introduced the meld, the optimal solution was to move as slow as possible and to go OW at the end of the turn - eventually a pod would get activated. The protocol for me was “no soldier should ever move further than the first solider that has already moved”, so as to maximize firepower.

In the Q&A, Hristo said as much on this: it seems like the alpha strike supersoldiers are in part an unwanted byproduct of trying to avoid excessive use of OW.

IMO, this is a reasonable approach - to give the option to go on the offense from the first turn. However, it must have consequences/drawbacks: that’s what makes for the existence of tactics.

That’s why I would be fine with a single dash resulting in a 36+ tile move, provided you couldn’t keep running at 12+ tiles per AP for the remainder of the turn (not to mention just use dash to move another 36+ tiles).

Of course another alternative would be to make more extensive use of (destroyable) spawn points to force the player to be on the move.

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I use only 1 +20 armor per turn, so my heavies have between 53 & 60 armor. Arthrons can’t poison, machine gun shreds a bit and I may lose 2-4 HP. They usualy use a grenade because it does a bit more damage. Tritons with SR are dangerous for the Fury or Thor you wear in your back. Sirens can MC you if you are not dual classed to berzerker and won’t live long anyway. Chirons will shred and may do a bit of damage.

I agree, eventhough it was fun, it should get nerfed.

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Not only you. Soldiers should not move more than 30 tiles per turn. And it should only be possible with speed stat at max, some boost and no obstacles on the way.

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If the average person’s efficiency is 75%, then say “Heroic Feat with Luck” is a maximum of 125%
Mostly, you can exceed 100% efficiency, but as a spring - the stronger you need to compress, the more energy you need
100% energy = 100% result
150% energy = 110% result
215% energy = 120% result
300% energy = 125% maximum result

possibly skill + skill = penalty WP/AP or skill + skill = skill + 50% of skill

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Why 30? If you are basing this on a reality check, I have to quote Zzzz: “That’s a low value argument” :grin:

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Sorry, I don’t think I understand what you mean.

You mean running father than “average” should cost more WPs? An example would help…

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30 tiles per turn is like 10 km/h. With combat gear it would be quite high.

And more important thing is size of maps. I would say that 30 is still too much, but as in example it would require max stat and boost from skill using Will Points.

And please don’t quote Zzzz while arguing with me.