Too much speed makes defense difficult

Does anybody feels like me that the “speed” that you can get makes flanking so easy compared to FiraXCOM (unless in WOTC you always use the same soldier for mobility boost).

The first few missions are nice because you can’t really move to a nice place AND shoot. You have to go step by step or accept not to shoot or overwatch.
Once you start putting points in speed, you’re not as limited. And with Frenzy, you’re flying. Add dash in the mix…

The same for Pandorans, they get a lot of movement.

It doesn’t make it easy to have a defensive position.

Speed is fine. It is the map that is too small.


So for current maps speed it too high. :slight_smile:

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Speed makes a lot of things difficult. :stuck_out_tongue:

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I agree with that. Speed is not the only problem with small maps. Enemies tends to check unknown location. So if you have to many ennemies they can only move toward your start location. This turns your start location to a death trap. Also it becomes near impossible to attack any ennemies without activating 80% of the remaining ennemies. As soon as they start converging (quickly because of the size of the map) you need pure fire power. Any effect on time become useless.

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There is too much difference between a level1 soldier and a level7.

  • Make level1 soldiers a bit quicker
  • Limit speed to 20 or even a bit lower
  • Have speed upgrades cost more

It would even give the custom perks that add 2 speed more value.
And of course apply limits to Pandorans accordingly…

I think that there should be 2 separate pools of AP:

  • moving
    • dash would add 1 AP to this pool
    • the last “yellow” line when moving uses this pool
  • shooting
    • quick aim adds 1 AP to this pool
    • the last “blue” line when moving uses this pool

When you move or shoot, both pools go down the same amount, but using some abilities can give you some extra movement or extra shooting. This would add the benefit for “dash” to not “waste” some AP.

I would suggest to optimize game to support larger maps, as there where at the beginning. Lower amount of tiles that each soldier can run in a turn and increase visibility. Or at least make it so you see much further than you can run.

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Klarum hit it. Speed is fine, the maps are too small.

How would you balance that with Assault rifles and shotguns? They can no longer shoot twice in a turn then if i’m understanding that setup… And pistols and PDWs? No more 4 shots to a turn? So we’d have no use for most AP with these weapons but to move and take a single shot…

I’m rather happy with the current 4 ap to use how i wish setup. Sometimes my tech/assault will move up close and disable a sirens head with a shotgun then fire the PDW to put in a bit more damage and use the last AP to run for cover.

I think a better option might be to add things like suppression fire or flash bangs into the game. Suppressing fire could halve the speed or accuracy of units attempting to move through its zone, but eat up the entire weapon mag. Maybe even tie it to specific weapons, like the New Jericho heavy guys machine guns, or arthrons machine gun arms. Flash bangs could either halve a units speed for a turn or two or apply a daze as well as maybe accuracy reduction or vastly reducing the units vision radius. Give us some more tactical options and then see if stats really need tweaking down the road.

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Out of interest - Does anyone know the maximum movement distance during a single turn for a solider using dash and with a maxed out speed stat?

Sorry, I didn’t go much into details, here you get an example (I could code it if you want :wink:):

  • initial settings: moveAP = shootAP = 4
  • use dash: moveAP = 6 & shootAP = 4
  • shoot: moveAP = 4 & shootAP = 2
  • move 2AP: moveAP = shootAP = 2 (shootAP didn’t go down because move is still >=)
  • quick aim: moveAP = 2 & shootAP = 3
  • shoot: moveAP = shootAP = 1 (moveAP went only 1 down so shoot stays >=)
  • move 1AP: moveAP = shootAP = 0

Hopefully I didn’t oversee something. You moved 3AP and shot twice for a total of 7AP. Same as now, except that your dash can be interrupted with no ill consequences, it simply adds 2AP that you can use only for movement.

The Kydoimos grenade (sonic - research synedrion - advanced paralysing weapons) is supposed to be a flashbang. Except that you first need to lower the will of the enemy to have a “daze” effect on them.
I would also like suppression to be there. What I had proposed in an other thread was something like:

  • Initiate suppression on a small zone (like a thin overwatch zone), it fires one round hopefully hitting a target once
  • when someone in the zone tries to fire (weapon, grenade, …anything), suppression triggers first to shoot at him/her/it.
  • when someone moves into/out of the zone, suppression triggers to shoot

You’re basically limited by your ammo (a bit like return fire). The price would be 1AP more than a normal shot and some WP (potentially each additional shot would cost WP - so use with care). If the enemy tries to shoot from the zone double the size of the aiming circles.

Let’s say you have 25 speed and 12 will (3 dash), you use Anu assault/berserker torso armor (+2) and agile legs (+5) and you have the “quaterback” perk that gives +2 speed (forgot the name).
You add “Frenzy” to the mix (+50%)
That makes a total of (25 + 2 + 5 + 2) * 1.5 = 51 speed (51 tiles)
Dash will be 25 tiles (51 * 2 / 4)
So you can theoretically move 51 + 25 * 3 = 126 tiles (you think it’s a lot ? wait … I was conservative using only 12WP)

Using the common skill points pool:
Add a dash with 16 will: 151 tiles
Add an other dash with 20 will: 176 tiles
An other dash with 24 will: 201 tiles

Other assaults using “rally troops”, add 12 (guess it is rounded down), do it by pair it’s 25 (no rounding).

So while your rookie can move (at best with same armor, mutation and frenzy & perk if present at level 1) 34 tiles, you could theoretically reach 201 tiles with your skill point dump soldier.

Do you know that assaults from other factions use dash too ? As Trinity puts it … “Dodge this”

Real test just now on a lair. I have an infiltrator with 23 speed (20 -2 thief +5 agile legs). With Frenzy it is 35. With 3 dash and all movement, I went from the back-row (worst starting position) to standing next to the spawnery. 2 assaults giving rally and I was able to shoot the egg. Still need a second turn to finish it but no Panda in sight. So imagine if I had 34 speed instead of 23.

And how far can a vehicle move during that same 1 turn?

(thanks btw, I really appreciate the maths)

Is the idea to balance the game around the extreme best examples then, such as that 201 tile dash you came up with, or balance things around what players actually do? I do pump max speed on my guys regardless of class, and get everyone to 12 will, but i know i’m not personally dashing anyone 201 tiles, or anywhere close to that, in one turn. Just leaves you too exposed to things like siren mind control, i see it as a bad tactical move…

Good info about those sonic grenades, i’d skipped them as i assumed sonic was like shock and would be useless with a value of ten on those. Kind of sucks that it’s a late game item and tied to a faction, maybe that could be changed… give PP a basic version that’s more expensive and the faction specific version costs a bit less to make.

For vehicules. I’ve seen that the Armadillo has 28 speed (28 tiles).
No research, armor, mutations or perks to make it better.
Being immune to Psychic, I guess that “Instil Frenzy” has no effect.

So here you have it. Armadillo can move at most 28 tiles.
I guess “rally the troops” still works, so you can add 7 tiles for each use of it.

But again, 201 tiles was without “rally the troops”.
Also did not count the fact that on some maps you can refill your willpower by passing inside certain zones, therefore have the ability to do some extra "dash"es.

To be fair this is the only time speed is broken. Because of the number of enemies and how small maps are, in any other situation rushing forward just means you get pilled on and killed the next turn. This is similar to citadels where you enter the map, rageburst the Scyla with your sniper, mission over.

I could also see a situation where you can rush a priest forward and mind bomb a huge number of enemies but that is more situational since you need a) the enemies to be grouped up b) a shorter distance since you dont want to use WPs on dashing

The game has a lot of cheese builds that work in one specific scenario. But maybe that is how we have to live with it. Having one specialized soldier for each situation. Because right now having “well rounded” soldiers does not seem to work.

Thanks, again I really appreciate that. :slight_smile:

What I’d propose then, is that the absolute maximum that any soldier should be able to move on a given turn is that same speed of an Armadillo (28 tiles). They certainly shouldn’t be able to move over 7 times faster.

In deed, it’s only theoretical. It makes for very quick lairs if you hate those (I use a mod so that “dash” isn’t interrupted).
But usually you wouldn’t send a trooped on the other side of the map.
Still, with 51 speed (frenzied), you can move 12 tiles forward (as much as a level 1 sniper’s 4AP move), shotgun, and come back.

Base defense if your priest starts in the docking bay area with all badies.

End game mission where all badies are grouped for 3 turns before they start moving.

Oh this is so good! Installing it :slight_smile:

And yes i have used the base defense priest a couple of times :smiley:

Speed? So you rush forward and beat everything all along the campaign, I’d like see such let’s play. :slight_smile:

Rush into isn’t the XCOM1&2 pods crap, but isn’t either a good tactic.

A detail, either speed 20+ or a mutation allows jump in high, at least one floor, very cool, I don’t want this nerfed. :slight_smile:

Second quote, it’s tempting to focus on speed in priority but I think it’s just natural not the best for all roster. All those glass cannon front scout are a bit weird I think.