it is not so hard, they deserve respect, period,
because they are trying to the best of their posibilities (if you don’t think so you are calling them negligents, on purpose)
and they deserve criticism if they don’t deliver,
also if the result is so awful for you then you leave and forget , like a bad dream
this is a game, it is not a house where you invested all your money and you find concealed defects every day
good or bad is a relative concept, talking about games, some people love a game in its current state and other hate it, at the same time
I think I understand what this part is about, you are talking about,
“Accuracy - Dodge / Evasion”.
But for PP, Accuracy = Aim Circle Radius,
and then depends on the physical Distance + the physical Size of the enemy model. As an example, a quick but small (for Aim) mindfragger.
If we talk about the Reaction, then there are options for “% damage”
activation of ability (escape into invisibility)
action (hide behind a claw)
I agree that it would be possible to add(mindfragger can bounce) even more actions (a rebound like in Girs Tactics), so that the system is more Visible.
I meant that in order to hit your target you need to take into consideration: its size, speed and movement pattern. While all of those factors can be easily included in standard % hit system, in PP it’s not possible (the only attribute of a target, that affects hit chance in PP is its size).
Therefore PP system is not revolutionary or better. It’s just different, with its own pros and cons.
Give an example of a game where implemented honestly / fairly - % to hit?
add
This is “Revolution and Better” in the sense that it is a “step forward”. Although for you this may sound like a “new, but just +1” is a good option.
lifeless system “numeral + numeral = numeral” - stably and unfairly.
Living System in which the result is summed up as variables arise
One vivid example:
in AR burst: 1 bullet - miss, 2 bullet - breaks the fence,
3 bullet - disabling an enemy limb behind a broken fence
I’m not a fan of any turn based system and the stupidity of the “run to enemy - point gun at his head - shoot him - run away and hide” actions. I really liked UFO: Apocalypse due to real-time mechanics (that’s obviously not saying everything was great there) - everyone was acting at the same time.
As far as turn based systems are concerned I enjoyed Jagged Alliance 2 the most. There was more emphasis on positioning, since moving was costly (you’d probably need to spend whole turn to cover the same distance as with 1 AP in PP) and staying out of cover was a death sentence. Also charging at enemy could earn you a bullet due to interrupt system (or any other action enemy deemed to perform- it was so much better than XCom / PP lazy overwatch).
That is a good example. Thing is you don’t need PP’s free aim system for it to work. In fact 20y old games (like the two mentioned above) operated this way.
As you pointed it out yourself, nothing stops PP devs from implementing a great morale system. Sky’s the limit…it’s just that current version is awfuly bad.
I think the WP system in Phoenix Point is great and it is innovative. It’s an abstraction that in a simple, but effective and predictable way ties willpower, exertion, psychic combat and morale loss.
I think you yourself will be able to name the super obvious difference “then and now”, conditions with other rules that require the introduction of new methods. Here is the keyword “3D”.
Voland, I agree with you about the principles of the system WP. I might have not done justice it deserves. Things you’ve mentioned are logically connected and as a concept, they work together nicely. I like the idea that going Above&Beyond puts a mental strain, which makes one more exposed to PSI warfare (morale is a bit different though. Like for instance state of mental exhaustion and panic are not the same).
However looking at how morale system was implemented: Enemy killed = gain morale, Friend/Neutral killed = loose morale. When you fall to 0, lose a turn and recover morale. That’s all.
There’s nothing great or innovative about it. It’s bad (In post 78 I’ve written just a handful of dozen of reasons).
I think we have to consider where we are coming from on morale mechanics in the X-Com/XCom subgenre, where it was just something that, if and when, “just happened”. It wasn’t something the player could really manage, or use a strategy to take advantage of.
It does have its shortcomings though…
As I would like PP to be more horror than wargame oriented, I’m more concerned about how the Lovecraftian aspect isn’t really reflected in the current system. Where is the fear and the toll of facing unspeakable horrors?
constantly gain WP with one of the priests head in a given radius
… ?
But it’s not as complex as I would like it to be, so here I am mostly with you:
But for me it is not that bad as you mentioned and I think the given base has enough potential to expand it to a pretty good morale system.
On the other hand, IMO there are actually enough other and more important issues to solve at the moment then expanding or changing the current more simplified morale system.
I would add that some disabled body parts reduce Max WPs, which can also reduce current WPs.
But there is definitely not a lot there, and PradBitt did mention in an earlier post
However, I do think there is particular design philosophy behind not having collateral loss of WPs, which is to avoid stuff like soldier A has arm disabled, panics, wastes turn needed on healing, soldier B panics from seeing soldier A panic, soldier C doesn’t panic but has terrible penalty on aim, etc. So one lucky shot from a sniper Triton across the map snowballs into total morale collapse (I’m exaggerating, but you see what I mean).
Yep, I was hoping for more of that too. Facing in a straight up fight other mutated humans, that succumbed into the maddness. But at the same time real threat would be lurking in the dark, possibly hidden everywhere (you may even walk over them, not knowing they’re watching you, waiting for the opportunity to strike), strange whispers driving soldiers crazy, etc., etc.
The idea of the Willpower system is mental energy management. Soldiers spend their willpower to go above their limits, geting more and more tired in the process. If they go over the top they’ll get exhausted and will need to stop and catch their breath. Additionaly enemy can use their own means to exhaust their mental energy reservoir, or perform a direct attack on their minds.
It all sticks together and it’s a nice system. However nothing here is about morale yet. Please note the difference:
when you dash yourself almost to the death and fall to the ground, you’re not going to scream in panic “OMG, we’re going to die”; you’re just exhausted, lying on the ground;
on the other hand when someone panics, he usually still has energy (meaning those two are independent)…and you may be sure he’ll go above&beyond to dash away from the danger (possibly breaking his personal record in the process).
So we have that neat mental energy management system. Now let’s just slap one more rule on top of it: “Enemy dies = + Willpower; Ally dies = - Willpower”. Did we add a morale system here? NOPE. It’s still a different mechanic with a weird additional rule. That’s why I said that morale part is bad.
But it’s not very relevant, since:
So much true. I agree with you, guys. All I’ve said above about morale was just an observation. I dont feel it needs to be expanded, given finite resources and the fact that there are many things where devs would get much more bang for their bucks.
Personaly I’d love to see more PSI warfare instead. Given the nature of Yuggothian entity, its ever groving mental presence, the way it controls its minions and tries to influence living population, it would be very thematic. At the same time it would create a great potential for Pandoran evolution.
With the ODI (or whatever will be next) increasing they could get more varied and powerful PSI tools (so much can be done with various buffs, debuffs, attacks, not just “panic”/“mind control”).
PP would be forced to study them and research the ways to defend (or even hit back / disrupt mental links/powers should Player decide to dedicate his resources into PSI research tree).
Interesting. I get your point but I think of mental energy/willpower as connected to morale and largely using the same currency.
I have no experience of what happens during combat, and the example I will use will probably sound silly:
I used to have a very stressful job that was exhausting both physically and mentally. Quite often we had to go 2-3 days without sleep, a lot of multitasking, high demands on amount and quality of output, and very low tolerance for mistakes of any kind, that sort of thing.
So of course people were constantly breaking down in different ways. Very few cases were of complete physical exhaustion, but the most common pattern fits nicely the PP willpower abstraction:
first there was a gradual exhaustion of willpower/mental energy because a person kept exerting herself to complete extraordinary feats (and sometimes the sense of achievement replenished some of the spent energy);
then there was a moment when a person reached her mental/willpower limit; she didn’t collapse from physical exhaustion, but she was incapable of further extraordinary feats, and she didn’t breakdown either - her output was lower, but usually if allowed a relatively short period to recover (of course in this example we are looking at longer periods of time, but the overall pattern is similar), or given some motivation, she was back on the crazy treadmill;
the breakdown happened somewhere around the point of mental exhaustion, because something new happened, some new fear/source of stress appeared or was realized, like some mistake you made was discovered, or someone up the food chain decided to give you a little screaming session for another reason (not unlike the Psychic Scream).
more often than not, the breakdown resulted in a temporary loss of self-control, followed by a fairly short recovery period.
So I just naturally perceive willpower/mental energy as intertwined with morale (and so, btw did our employer, because their whole business model depends on that connection): at high levels of mental energy, a crisis will not result in emotional breakdown, at low levels anything can take you over the edge.
Also, it’s separate from physical energy - in your example of dash, I see it at as mental energy is required to will yourself to dash, and after dashing once perhaps you don’t have to mental energy to will yourself to dash again, but you might still have plenty of physical energy to bolt away from danger if you panic.
Anyway, it is a silly example as office work and combat are not comparable, and this is not to comment so much on the quality of the willpower system in PP as a morale mechanic, as to explain why I personally found it convincing enough.
Yes, indeed. I’m definitely for giving them some health regenerating ability and limb restoration (I really like the idea of them healing in the mist).
Also, I would separate Frenzy into a “haste” and a “bravery” spells, and add “slow” and “blind” spells.
That’s acctually a nice example. It shows however a longer time frame, when a person went through multiple bursts of action and recovery phases. She might have spent her strenght all down to 0 in a day or a few, and recover it during evening/weekend, while constantly maintaining high morale.
Her morale might have been eroding gradualy in that longer time frame due to other factors (like: “I’m working so hard but get no recognition\ no results\realize there’s no point in it”).
Also losing self control does not necessary means low morale (for instance bursts of anger).
Secondly it’s perfectly fine to have high Willpower and low morale (“this is not my fight” stance; also most of the recruits with no combat experience). Though admittedly it’s much easier to break someones morale if he has low Willpower (which also relates to your example) - so there’s a relation between the two, but they’re not the same thing.
Lastly: It has been known from the ancient times that, when you break enemy’s morale and they start running, it’s better (unless you feel ballsy) to leave them an escape route. This way you can chase and stab them in the back. Otherwise they will try to cut their way out through your men (and often will succeed), since they’re still perfectly capable of performing extraordinary feats in order to save their lives.
