V 1.10 Question about fire damage

[VOLAND]

It might well be bugged, but to try to find some consistency in what we are seeing…

Could it be that tiles on fire have a fire status strength that reduces with time and the character inherits the fire status with the strength of the tile? That would explain this:

@oSiyeza

However, if I did not move and stand in the middle of the fire I did not receive additional damage from the ground, instead my fire status was reduced by 10… while standing in the fire.

Also this

@oSiyeza

while I have seen enemies get hurt while running in trough fire and get a burning status, I have also seen them running safely trough it. With no effect whatsoever.

If the strength of the tiles on fire was less than the armor on the least armored body part, this is what should happen.

@oSiyeza

I also have seen fire status get reduced twice in the same turn.

You mean like it went from 20 to 0? If the fire status = fire on tile, it would drop to 0 once the character spends a turn outside of the fire.

Again, just a working theory.

Also, even if it proves correct, a different discussion is whether this was a good change or not

[Valygar]

Detailed explanation of the new fire mechanic:

Setting an enemy on fire with flamethrower

First : Flat Damage is applied to one body part minus the set body part armor (Base flamethrower flat damage is 80)

Formula: BodyPartHP - (FlatDamage - BodyPartArmor) = ImpactDamage(Damage applied on body part from flat damage only).

Second: burning damage from the ground(40dmg) is instantly applied on each body part minus the armor.

Formula: CurrentLitTileDmg - BodyPartHP = GroundBurnDmgOnEachPart

To get the damage that will be applied to the HP from the burning ground we add all GroundBurnDmgOnEachPart from each body part and subtract it from the number of body parts.

Formula: Y = Number of body parts (GroundBurnDmgOnEachPart1 + GroundBurnDmgOnEachPart2 + …) / Y = DmgGroundBurnOnHP

Third : We add ImpactDamage + DmgGroundBurnOnHP which will give us the exact damage applied to the unit HP.

Formula: CurrentHP - (ImpactDamage + DmgGroundBurnOnHP) = TotalDmgApplied

Burning Status and when it is applied:
If you lit an enemy on fire the burning status will be applied on enemy’s next turn.

If after the damage is applied the enemy is not on burning tile the Burning Status is removed.

If the enemy is on a burning tile the Burning will be re-applied and the damage will be done on next enemy turn again.

How a burning tiles work:
Burning tile applies 40 Burning Status when the tile is freshly lit and someone steps in it.

Each burning tile reduces its damage with 10 each turn for the faction that lit the fire.

Burning ground damage is applied to the solider that steps on it based on the DmgGroundBurnOnHP formula.

[etermes]

that makes sense, sometimes last turn with fire (incendiary grenade , base defence) is inflicting low or 0 damage

[VOLAND]

So, what I said : characters inherit fire status from tile and strength of fire status decreases each turn. They still take damage from stepping on lit tile, but as the strength of the fire decreases, the character takes less damage (and it can be blocked altogether by armor).

Good change/bad change? Thoughts?

[oSiyeza]

Maybe I just missread.

One of the devs actually contacted me and explained me the mechanic. Instantly getting my inconditional favor and granting my hate for all the people that trash them.

This is how it goes (hope I put it correctly):

• Fire works with an instant damage when you enter a fire tile, or lit on fire, and a status effect starting to add damage on following turns (effect of tiles delayed 1 turn).
• Moving from a fire tile does not produce damage (removed)
• Fire effect is inherited from the tile you stand on and this is reduced from 40 by 10 per turn (the fire on the tile itself is reduced). Fire effect is instantly removed when you walk out of fire.

My thoughts?

• Being on fire should severely reduce the perception or accuracy. Because it makes sense and because otherwise long range enemies on fire can just stand still and shot at you with little to no penalty. Making the use of fire only suitable for short range targets and kind of pointless.

I think a difference as small as this one will completely change the way I feel towards the mechanic.

[VOLAND]

@oSiyeza

Moving from a fire tile does not produce damage (removed)

Yep, this further explains reports of less damage than expected from moving in fire. Another thing I noticed is that moving in a diagonal reduces exposure to lit tiles.

@oSiyeza

Fire effect is inherited from the tile you stand on and this is reduced from 40 by 10 per turn (the fire on the tile itself is reduced). Fire effect is instantly removed when you walk out of fire.

I think this address the problem with fire removal (when you have an operative with little armor and you know that in a couple terms all his limbs will be disabled), and imo it’s a good solution.

@oSiyeza

Being on fire should severely reduce the perception or accuracy. Because it makes sense and because otherwise long range enemies on fire can just stand still and shot at you with little to no penalty. Making the use of fire only suitable for short range targets and kind of pointless.

There is no penalty (big or small) atmo, and looking at stats I can say it would be viable for some Arthrons and Tritons to stay in fire and continue shooting, provided they don’t move at all. However, I don’t think that makes fire at all pointless against them. You can lob a fire grenade without LoS with 100% accuracy, and if the Panda wants to get LoS on you, it will have to move.

Attacking with Dante, on the other hand, has the advantage that you will score 80 impact damage on a body part. I’m not sure I like that: the body part that will receive the 80 damage seems to be random, and this kind of damage is not what I want of a flamethrower anyway. I would prefer something like a smaller blast damage, but affecting multiple body parts.

[oSiyeza]

@VOLAND

There is no penalty (big or small) atmo, and looking at stats I can say it would be viable for some Arthrons and Tritons to stay in fire and continue shooting, provided they don’t move at all. However, I don’t think that makes fire at all pointless against them. You can lob a fire grenade without LoS with 100% accuracy, and if the Panda wants to get LoS on you, it will have to move.

Yes, but the flamethrower will now be very hard to use, since is a low range weapon that requires LOS. So if you use it, most of the time you will expose yourself to fire, and death.

This happened actually to me, and also them just walking out of fire to me and melee kill me, the second one may be fair, but is not obvious to think that you also need to lit the tiles between you and the enemy to be safe. The first has not counter and should not happen.

@VOLAND

Yep, this further explains reports of less damage than expected from moving in fire. Another thing I noticed is that moving in a diagonal reduces exposure to lit tiles.

Yes that explains how some enemies walked trough fire diagonally crossing a tile, without taking any damage.

[MadSkunky]

@VOLAND

the body part that will receive the 80 damage seems to be random

Against a Siren I was able to move the cone a bit around and it seems that this way you can target a specific body part but it is not clear which part. I had to zoom in quite a bit to assume where it will go and the result was that I hit his tail, set him on fire but no tile was lit … my Heavy was close, so I guess he simply aimed to high.
It is not reliable and maybe only usable with bigger targets. I will try further …

[VOLAND]

@oSiyeza

Yes, but the flamethrower will now be very hard to use, since is a low range weapon that requires LOS. So if you use it, most of the time you will expose yourself to fire, and death.

I have been using it now for a while and in general it’s not bad, though of course it depends on what you use it on. Heavily armored targets are no-no, but to be fair that’s how it should be (or at least how I expect it). Most Tritons and springy Arthrons are basically done for - it doesn’t one shot kill them, but most of their limbs will be disabled by the time their turn starts.

@MadSkunky

set him on fire but no tile was lit …

This has happened to me as well, and it’s annoying because usually what I want is to create a firewall. Maybe there is some trick as to how the cone must be aimed?

[oSiyeza]

@VOLAND

I have been using it now for a while and in general it’s not bad, though of course it depends on what you use it on. Heavily armored targets are no-no, but to be fair that’s how it should be (or at least how I expect it). Most Tritons and springy Arthrons are basically done for - it doesn’t one shot kill them, but most of their limbs will be disabled by the time their turn starts.

Late enemies (tritons and crabs) seem to survive one turn fine, though. Maybe instant damage should be increased for the flamethrower? (Also I agree on the random body part thing). I still think an accuracy/perception reduction while on fire would be a good thing. That would help with return fire too.

[Accce]

I read all your comments. If it was planned to use the flamethrower against lightly armored targets, then let it deal damage to all parts of the body by 20-40 units. and sets them on fire. Then reuse will definitely be effective, but if there is no armor.
Ideally I see a flamethrower like this:
Deals 40-60 damage to all parts of the body and sets it on fire. Gorenje imposes a penalty to accuracy. Try to shoot when you are burning)))))
You are trying to make a flamethrower weak, although it is used for close range and extremely situational. An ancient sniper rifle annihilates everything you can, that’s what you need to think about)))))

[VOLAND]

@Accce

Ideally I see a flamethrower like this:
Deals 40-60 damage to all parts of the body and sets it on fire.

Right now it does 40 damage to all body parts and sets the target on fire (gives it 40 fire status damage), in addition to the 80 impact damage on a single body part. Should it rather do 60 damage to all body parts, but no impact damage?

@Accce

Try to shoot when you are burning)))))

I like the idea of a debuff to accuracy, but there are many status effects in the game and for each one you could make the same argument, e.g. “try to aim/shoot while you are poisoned, paralyzed, covered in acid, etc.”. I don’t think that all of them should have an accuracy penalty though. I would prefer to have poison do that, since currently it’s the most underwhelming DoT, and fire is strong as it is.

[Accce]

That’s what I liked about the flamethrower, burning all the limbs in one shot, but that’s on the normal difficulty of the game. After the release of the new add-on, I want to start again at maximum difficulty. I can imagine what kind of flamethrower will be useless at maximum difficulty with such parameters.
I don’t know how other players use it. But I have to come together three things: 2-4 opponents stand side by side on the same line for a flamethrower, there must be a fighter nearby and that he would have a flamethrower. My units have a maximum of 2 soldiers with a flamethrower. I want to say that the soldiers always wear a flamethrower, and shoot so rarely that you can not remember. Random limb damage, bad idea.
And yes, you’re probably right, debuffs are not needed)

[oSiyeza]

I dont think you can shot while paralysed .

Also seems right to reduce accuracy on poison and fire. With acid yes the argument can be made indeed, but making sense is just a small part that does not justify it alone. The real one would be, if improves the balance of the game, then should be done.

I agree on poison being underwhelming, in fact Im not sure poison should be a separated system at all. I can see regular poison being replaced by acidic poison that in addition shreds armor in later game (acid). I mean, poison in game is not a gas, so I guess it is absorved trough the skin or when penetrates the body. In fact it could be a cool chance for evolution mechanics, poison is after all an evolutionary trait, with qualities that range from blinding, to neurotoxicity, paralisis or dissolving organs.

Chemical warfare is neat!

[VOLAND]

@oSiyeza

I dont think you can shot while paralysed .

I meant as in having some paralysis damage, but not being fully paralyzed.

@oSiyeza

I agree on poison being underwhelming, in fact Im not sure poison should be a separated system at all.

Interesting.

I feel like poison is in a weird place, because in theory it’s quite strong - completely ignores armor and is recurring - but in practice it’s only a problem for the player, when on the receiving end of it. If it had some debuffing effect (accuracy and/or speed) I would probably use it. Though when on the receiving end of it, I would just heal it anyway, as I do now.

[MadSkunky]

I think poison is still a viable choice, especially when you don’t have excessive damage buffs. For instance, I like low level Infiltrators with the poison crossbow or other rookies with poison grenades, all in all both deal more damage as their “regular” counterparts, aka pure damaging standard crossbow or normal grenades, even purification grenades are basically weaker (the poison grenade has +10 blast damage but sadly no shred).

[MichaelIgnotus]

Personally, I would have liked to see Fire do less damage but ignore armour (the only suit that can protect you if you run into a burning building is thermal protection - Kevlar is useless).

Say 20 per BP thru armour.

But we have what we have, and at least it (should) be consistent now.

[oSiyeza]

Regarding the umbra, anybody has tested the new mechanic with them?

I mean, if you throw a grenade to a host on fire, and kill the host, you may will be removing the fire status of the host as well, so the umbra may rise in that occasion. Also now the host can just remove its fire status by walking out of the fire, so I guess it is much harder now.

Also what happens when it dies the same turn fire goes out?

And, the way umbra works, without body parts, fire is not going to do much agains it now.

@MichaelIgnotus

But we have what we have, and at least it (should) be consistent now.

Except for the diagonal walking somehow causing less damage, and the Dante failing to lit the ground for large enemies.

[MichaelIgnotus]

I can confirm from several tests that a toasted Umbra remains toasted

[VOLAND]

@oSiyeza

Except for the diagonal walking somehow causing less damage

I’m not sure that there is anything wrong with that, tbh. You take damage for entering a lit tile - if you walk diagonally you step on less tiles. If you walk diagonally into a lit tile, you still take damage.