Since you kept asking repeatedly for when a Sniper or 3 AP weapon user could use RF against you… HERE:
It seems a bit strange to me, that you ignored Oldboy’s post, which seemed pertinent to your arguments, and just liked Namad’s post that said RF is 100% fine and dandy, instead. “We just need to be able to see the RF range, so we can base our entire troop placement and strategy around this one ability.”
By the way. “Return fire” messes with your ammo.
In BB5, more than once I had a sure kill that didn’t happen because there was only half a burst left in my gun. And of course I got hit by return fire since the enemy is still alive.
I haven’t checked in the release since I don’t use return fire on my troops. Keep in mind that it turns against you when you get mind-controled. It is kind of unavoidable once Sirens enter the play, and killing the Siren with one of your guys “return fire” is not easy.
Oh God I hadn’t even thought of that yet…
That’s the most fun part. Attack the Siren from the opposite direction of where your MC:ed soldier is…
You mean the ENEMY’S side of the map?
The enemies have their own side? I mean you run a zerker or assault up to the Siren on the opposite side of where your mind controlled soldier is and hit F+Space. The return fire might hit your point blank guy, but it’s much more likely the siren gets the punishment. (Now I don’t mean to say this is a reliable or effective tactic, but it IS fun).
Regarding RF, I’ve never seen it as a problem, I believe I’ve had many more moments where my own Assaults return fire have saved me than I had annoyances when the Pandorans use it. I only play on Veteran though and while perhaps not a true save scummer I do reload if things go really bad. I’m not opposed to changing the mechanic if it annoys a lot of people, my personal preference would probably be that it only triggers in the front 180 degrees.
Being saved by a broken features isn’t a good thing. You can surely abuse it quite readily. No need to, when there are far superior broken builds that can wipe out the entire map in two turns, of course.
Best way to handle RF is it’s based off AP, like everything in the game. You leave some extra AP, you will fire on enemies who fire on you. They will go back to cover before you can shoot them, of course.
Return fire makes no sense compared to overwatch. Overwatch needs to be set in a cone and only triggers once and use AP.
While RF is free of cost, unlimited uses and 360 degrees. Its overpowered^3
Personally I think the overwatch should be unlimited shooting in the cone for each AP the enemy spends walking through it. Coz you were al set and focussed. Enemies cant just walk up to you full range unpunished while you are guarding that spot.
In comparison RF should then grant a single interrupt for free when the soldier with RF get shot but missed. Then you occasionally get a free attack and its nice to have.
Then both features are back in proportion.
I was exaggerating when I said “saved by”, I simply meant it’s been much more of a boon than an annoyance for me.
I disagree with the AP cost for RF, and also the idea that it should only trigger on misses. The Pandorans seldom miss. Any of those solutions would in my opinion make RF a crap skill that no one would spend ability points on. Better remove it entirely and give us something else instead in that case.
I don’t care if RF took you out to dinner, it’s a broken feature so its help is unbalancing. An enemy alien who pops out of full cover can be 1-shot by a heavy or sniper with RF, if not several of them.
An AP cost is mandatory, that or you restrict RF to one use per turn. It doesn’t make sense to be able to get 12 free action points on your enemy’s turn.
The miss aspect I feel is unnecessary. So long as the triggerer returns to cover, that should be enough.
One use per turn is perfectly viable in my opinion.
Perharps;
1 use per turn, only front 180 degrees, half perception range like now, but does full instead of half damage?
I think it should also have reduced accuracy to reflect that it’s a reaction shot, not one that is planned and aimed, I also think that that accuracy should be especially reduced in the case that the character returning fire has just been shot.
This would require being able to select facing (for free, since it’s too minor action).
Now that I think of it, this would also lead to funny stuff like turning your back to enemy to avoid weapon hits/ reduce head hits (in crouch stance) on units without RF. Or fiddling with facing to avoid sticking head out of cover at particular angle.
Not necessarily. Since it’s a free shot, I don’t see why you should be able to choose facing any more than you already can (through firing or overwatch). We don’t need to add any mechanics that aren’t already there. It would basically be a free overwatch shot to the front arc, but only against enemies firing at you or your team.
Another fix for the skill could be to simply allow for two overwatch shots instead of one?
It should be like overwatch and based on remaining TUs. Only return fire when there are TUs in the pot so to speak.
I respectfully disagree, then you might as well use Overwatch which makes RF a waste of ability points. I’m all for changing things that feel OP or are just broken, but there’s nothing more boring than abilities that you never want to take. Few abilities should fall into the “must have” category, but even fewer (preferably none) should fall in the “never ever” category.
You could potentially stack an Overwatch on a Return fire, so you could get two attacks on a target.
Then again, I’d prefer to just make Return Fire part of the game’s core mechanics, instead of a dumb magic power. XCOM had the revolutionary idea that if you have leftover TUs, you’d use those for Reaction Fire in response to the enemy during their turn. Might be better than whatever this is.
True, but I consider Overwatch to be the replacement for that mechanic in the original. Return fire should be something different. Although like several have stated a removal of the ability would hardly make the game any worse. Just add something else for the assults, AND make the AI value cover more and use OW instead?
Enemies with return fire have a little curved arrow that is in the upper right corner of their icon above the action bar. At least from what I can tell. It also might only appear when they are in range to return fire, I haven’t tested enough.
Indeed.
The way I see it, RF kills already hardly viable weapons.
Want to use Melee and Pistols?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Yea, enjoy getting shot 16 times/shot or slash because you are in closer range and repeatedly shoot/hit stuff.
Remove RF alltogheter for humans, change the ability for something else. Either make it something that improves overwatch, or something that benefits your close quarter functionality.
Then, keep RF just the way it is FOR A SELECTIVE NUMBER OF ENEMIES!!!
Make RF more rare, and explicit to really dangerous enemies, not on every fucknig grunt available.
This should help against those 1 minute “Watch enemy cycle return fire” every time you fire - because only a few enemies will actually be able to do so.
THis should ofcourse be along with other fixes, but I think a lot of us wouldn’t mind RF if it was something to be dealt with occationaly by like captains of an enemy force.