It’s simple math. You said they’d quadruple their damage. Most standard enemies with Return Fire have 2 AP burst weapons and burst weapons fire half-bursts when they Return Fire. If you expect them to fire once a turn then they’d need to Return Fire 8 times to do quadruple that damage. 6 if you consider the one shot they did in their turn as the baseline and you’re adding to reach that quadruple mark.
What I’m saying is, is that it isn’t that difficult to deal with it long before you get to that 6 to 8 mark. Hell, even a single instance of return fire can be avoided in most situations if you just respond correctly. Yeah, it crushes the practicality of a pistol against that enemy but not every weapon is meant to be used for every single job (except the shotgun: that thing can do anything because why not).
You can: A) Outrange Return Fire
B) Out angle Return Fire
C) Disable the weapon or weapon arm(s) of the enemy with Return Fire
D) Panic the enemy
Or any nuanced combination therein.
Which enemies even have the 3 AP single fires and Return Fire?
Certainly, its fans are much harder. RF is dumb like Rock Paper Scissors, it makes about as much sense, but it’s an easy game which some people are really impressed with and feel clever about. Like putting the circular block into the circular hole and the square ones in the square hole. All you need to do is realize your Assault guys and Berserkers and several other builds are useless, and send in the Snipers. If you’re really ‘clever’, you also know how to exploit the LoS bugs so that somehow, despite standing out in the open, the enemy forgets how to shoot at people.
Of course, that would be wilfully and blatantly ignoring the fact that a level sometimes gets filled with RFers, and even snipers get RF fire, and it becomes a long and convoluted mess to work out when you can shoot and why. At that point, it isn’t rock paper scissors, it’s a few people who like hitting their head on a rock.
tl;dr: We’ve disputed every point that is being regurgitated quite successfully. You can dream up as many strategies to live with your mother in law as you like, but it doesn’t change the fact no one WANTS to live with her.
Just chipping in another +1 for the “RF is horribly broken and not at all fun” pile.
It’s been one of the biggest things pushing me away from having a balanced and varied team and towards a horde of snipers. You basically have to disable an arm from out of range to counter the kind of asinine antics with enemies attacking more on their turn than they do on yours people are describing.
Basically, there are two ways I can see fixing RF-
As a bunch of people have suggested, make RF require action points so you can’t counterattack against every single attack in a round.
or, in my opinion, the better option:
Just remoive RF completely and give assault soldiers some new ability. There’s already the ability to overwatch and react to enemy actions on their turn- why exactly do there need to be two abilities for that (especially when one of them is broken as hell)?
Well said. However, it may surprise you that I actually like Return Fire as a concept. It makes sense, within limits. I wrote a thread with details on how to fix it, for that reason:
It’s probably one of the more realistic and interesting abilities out there, so it’d be a pity to throw it away when fixing it would be incredibly easy.
Let’s just dig the hole even deeper, shall we? It doesn’t matter if everything is wrong with this idea, let’s just suggest that only SOMETIMES you can get a bunch of RFers flooding the map, so it can take minutes until their return fire finishes, every time you shoot.
Was referring to a previous comment, where even when you used your sniper you would get RF fire. Please stop digging.
I like how you continue to dodge around my questions and arguments while deriding people for “being a fan” of the ability while calling yourself a fan. Truthfully I really don’t care about the ability all that much. At best I like it for making me do more than just use Assaults with shotguns to solve -literally everything in the game-.
Show me, in a full release build, even one image of these maps full of nothing but RFers that will make your turn into a comical slideshow of your guys dying for trying to do anything. That’s all I want.
I don’t care if Return Fire is balanced, fixed, or even removed. I don’t use the ability at all anyway: it’d just leave room for a new ability that I might even use! What I care about is the reasons given for it to be changed being honest and accurate.
Even if it’s just “I don’t like it. I don’t find it fun. These other people agree with me.” is enough. It’s a game. It’s meant to be fun. If it isn’t and a large amount of people are finding this to be that big a killjoy - fix it.
But if you’re going to tell me that it’s LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to deal with that one guy while you have a heavy and a sniper on the team (which you always start with) without getting Return Fire’d I’m going to call you on your bullshit.
If you’re going to tell me that one guy can quadruple his damage by simple being fired at once or twice, I’m going to call your bullshit.
If you’re going to tell me that a soldier can go in, fire at that one guy once, and just die from full HP? I’m going to tell you no.
I don’t know everything about this game, that’s something that is very simply true.
Maybe there are Snipers with Return Fire on some map where there’s 10 of them off screen that you can’t see that will just murder you for trying anything. If there is, SHOW ME or even just TELL ME. If there isn’t, stop bullshitting, please, because enemy Snipers in my game, on Hero and on brief Legend tests, just do not have that ability.
Edit: having reread what you posted, I see my error in making a leap from: " Even if their weapon normally took 3 AP to use, they’ll use 12 points of AP." and “Of course, that would be wilfully and blatantly ignoring the fact that a level sometimes gets filled with RFers, and even snipers get RF fire” to “Snipers with Return Fire”. But, still, where are these enemies with 3 AP weapons that Return Fire?
There is nothing to reply to. Everything you’ve said was either covereed already, four times, or is just fallacious drivel.
After a whole thread, you still don’t get it? No one finds it hard. You might be super impressed with yourself, working out you can kill one guy by using both a HEAVY and a SNIPER… but that was obvious from the start. You could also bring a scarab, and wipe out the one guy.
It’s not that it’s hard, it’s that it’s dumb beyond contempt.
A) very difficult to do in a base defense mission
B) RF is 360° so I don’t understand what you mean by out-angle
C) When 3 crabs stand next to each other, removing one’s arm still triggers 2 RF, so it works only with a lone crab.
D) To panic them you have to kill some of them
In my experience only two things work:
out ranging as you said, so base defense is still a problem
trying to find a place where you have only line of sight on one crab and killing it.
break line of sight and overwatch
If they have grenade launchers, only out-ranging works.
Just to put things in perspective:
Overwatch: costs AP - directional - one “full” shot => a strategic choice
Return Fire: costs nothing - 360° - near-unlimited “half” shots => a “no brain needed” choice
A) I haven’t had a chance to do a base defense in full release yet. Do you have any footage of one, by any chance? Is it really that dense and uniform in enemy types?
B)Out angling is mostly for Arthrons but works for anything with it if done just right and is a simple concept, really: if you fire from where they don’t have a line of fire, they won’t return fire. It’s possible in many situations to find places to stand where you do have a line of fire but they don’t. Since Arthrons have a pretty heavy right-side lean on their guns, putting certain kinds of cover between you and them at varying angles can make them unable to return fire. An accidental example: Twitch
C) You said it yourself, try to find that angle where only one can return fire. But, yeah, if the population is dense and the space limited, it could be a problem. At that point, I guess: rockets
D) Not if you’re Anu! >:D - But, seriously, especially in full release where even nests are no longer uniform, you don’t need to kill MG Arthrons to panic the MG Arthrons, right? Murder their non-RF friends out of their line of sight and clean them up when they’re panicked. Or the turn after when they’ve recovered their will and can RF but are in bad places. Or maybe just MC one of the low will ones and turn him against his frie- oh wait, non-Anu solutions.
Which is why I actually like these given change suggestions:
These two, together or alone would be a great balance point. Of course, for player based Return Fire, you’d need to make the skill into a toggle so the player can choose to utilize it until their Will hits 0 or not use it at all to conserve the resource.
Again, though, on that final note, how many enemies have Return Fire that don’t have burst weapons? I honestly can’t remember one.
And, yeah, like I said: I’m not opposed to reworking or even scrapping RF, but honest discussion would be nice instead of hyperbole, exaggerations, and pointless jabs. Not that that’s what you’re doing.
Since we’re talking about preferred solutions, here’s mine:
return fire only triggers once
return fire only triggers by being shot at (so only the unit that was originally targeted gets to fire back)
other units with RF ability (which would normally fire under the current rules) will only fire if they were on overwatch (meeting the usual overwatch requirements, except they are allowed to shoot even if the triggering unit did not move, only fired)
This would make dealing with RF more tactical - for example you could use your heavy armor guy to draw the fire (or a healthy one etc.) It would also bring the ability more in line with overwatch(which can only trigger once).
If it makes RF too weak, compensate by increasing damage (to full burst instead of half) or make the ability cost less points to purchase.
My idea was to allow multiple RFs, but only if you have the AP for it (that is, end your turn with AP left over). So, if you have a pistol, you could RF at several people, but a hel cannon will only get one use.
I’m OK with RF triggering groups, so long as RF is limited to once or limited by AP, and so long as you return to cover before the RF starts.
So, instead of targeting the most exposed and dangerous enemies, we instead play Scooby Doo and “split up and search for clues”, running away from the RF monsters in a comical chase sequence.
That makes about as much sense as Scooby Doo. Normally, you pick off exposed enemies and targets of opportunity to whittle the opposition down, not expose yourself so as to ignore present threats because of their magic powers.
From my point of view, return fire has no tactical value in its current form. It’s just a “matrix” like ability.
If return fire has to stay, it should trigger only if the attack came from a side the unit has direct cover with (90° angle). Meaning, no cover, no return fire. Cover on 3 sides, return fire on a 270° angle. Arthron shield counts as cover. The tactical value is that you accept to keep line of sight, but if the enemy decides to shoot you you bite back. It would already feel less like an ability compensating some bad AI staying in the middle of the battlefield.
The best, from my point of view would be replacing it with suppression/covering fire. Like overwatch but:
costs 1 AP more than overwatch
restricted to burst weapons
severe restriction on the cone width
uses one round to set (with a chance to hit the target)
uses one round if something moves in the cone
triggers before enemy fires/ability/grenade and uses one round
I agree that RF needs an overhaul, and something of a nerf. Maybe there could be two separate Return Fire perks, but I’m not sure how it would work with regard how they are made available to which classes. Either way, both would render the unit far less prolific in the amount of RF shots they are able to take.
RF1 could be considered ‘standard’, whereby return fire happens only once per unit per turn. Accuracy should diminish depending on proximity of enemies, to simulate being ‘panicked’ or rushed - it is the enemy’s turn, after all. These suggested modifiers could apply:
Pistols: 1 shot, 100% normal accuracy if no enemies within 5 tiles (not a guaranteed shot), incrementally decreasing to 75% if adjacent.
Assault Rifle: half burst, 100% normal accuracy if no enemies with 5 tiles, incrementally decreasing to 50% if adjacent.
OR…
Assault Rifile: full burst, 85% normal accuracy if no enemies within 5 tiles, incrementally decreasing to 50% if adjacent.
Shotgun: 1 shot, 85% normal accuracy if no enemies within 5 tiles, incrementally decreasing to 70% if adjacent.
Sniper Rifle: 1 shot, 80% normal accuracy if no enemies with 10 tiles, incrementally decreasing to 50% if adjacent. If Master Marksmen perk is owned, this increases to 100%/75%.
Melee: 1 attack, 80% normal accuracy.
The ‘RF2’ perk could represent an upgrade, only after purchasing RF1. It could increase the amount of times Return Fire can happen per unit per turn (lets say three times), but with slightly reduced accuracy. This would be intended more for assault troops, with assault rifles and shotguns.
I think some standard decrease in accuracy, and also accuracy owing to proximity is important, because even though the perk needs to be useful, as said, it’s the enemy’s turn. The idea of interrupting the other player’s turn in a turn-based game should represent significant cost, as overwatch does.
Hmm, not feeling these concepts. I figure we should keep it simple. You got spare AP, you can use them to return fire.
In more detail:
You get 1 free action point during the enemy turn, plus whatever action points you didn’t spend during your turn.
You could theoretically have 5 AP, if you did nothing during your turn. This would allow you to shoot a heavy weapon or sniper rifle once, an AR or shotgun twice, or a pistol 5 times, during the enemy turn.
If you save no AP, you can only shoot a pistol once, as a free action.
You can return fire at enemies who shoot at you or an ally.
The enemy must be within half(?) of your effective weapon range and visible.
The enemy must be in front of you, within 100(?) degrees.
Your accuracy will be reduced significantly while returning fire.
Enemies will return to cover before you can return fire, if they were in cover.
This seems similar to Valkyria Chronicles. And that worked just fine, even if the RF was in some ways stronger than it is here.
I didn’t think I was going to find anything else to mention with regards to RF as I’ve written my thoughts at length.
RF isn’t causing any problems since I mainly keep my distance and use lots of snipers.
However, I am currently on a special mission which involves a very small cave map. It also has Sirens. Hah, I just have to laugh with incredulity
Lots of HP, lots of armour AND can mind control TWO soldiers at once? Seems cheap. And guess what? The confined quarters mean you can’t spread your team out, even if you wanted to. So what happens? Everytime to try to shoot the Siren your men will RF you. It’s possible to have your own sniper (in this case two of them) shooting your own guys in the back of the head 4 times per round if you have your 4 remaining soldiers attack the siren. There’s that 12 AP again…or 24 if they all shoot twice
I actually still managed to whittle it down with no losses and was ready to kill it next turn but then my two mind-controlled soldiers rushed to heal it for 240 points of health :s A shame that medkits made for humans work on Pandoran freaks but oh well, it’s just a game mechanic Next turn another one waltzed around the tight corner and controlled two more guys.
I’m assuming (hoping) the Siren has some sort of vulnerability, flashbangs or something that breaks the mind-control, that needs to be researched.
I feel that, at this point, since the game seems to want you to overwatch and keep your distance, my guys virtually never need to RF. Therefore, if I could, I’d actually have my troops ‘un-learn it’ since it’s just a very dangerous hindrance when coming up to what might be one of the nastiest enemies in the game! If it wasn’t for my own troops RF’ing, I’d have just taken lots of damage and maybe lost one guy, fair enough in a tough battle with a new enemy.
I’m not fussed since I’m guessing this ‘special mission’ is hand-made to be nasty. I’m also still learning the game and it’s not Ironman but if it was, I’d be pissed.
I’m gonna try it again and take a scarab. I’m assuming it can’t be MC’ed and I can nuke it. That or I’ll take an all-heavy/sniper team and just sit at the end of the longest corridor I can find using rifles and grenade launchers.
Return fire DOES NOT HAVE 100% chance to hit. It just doesn’t. When I get return fired on they miss me like 50% of the time because I’m getting return fired upon from the very edge of the return fire abilitiy.
Of course if you walk right up adjacent to someone who has return fire they’re not going to miss. like. duh?
If you shoot them with a sniper rifle or something they just never fire back and you’re fine.
Thus the only problem I see is that there is no way to easily view the range of return fire. Yes, after I move I can see a little icon that shows which enemies are going to return fire me. However it’d be nice to know that information BEFORE I move. Although, due to the way movement works in this instead of newcom, if you’re outside return fire range and want to move closer you could just move one square at a time, spending the same amount of ap this way, but checking return fire’s radius each step. This would be annoying and unfun. So some sort of circle would be better imo. Something like the overwatch UI visual element should totally be visible for return fire. Both friendly and enemy, why not?
…Even after THAT example… the cult of Namu is still protect Return Fire. “Well, it doesn’t happen ALL the time, right?”
“Duuur… why don’t you just use snipers to kill everything?” What a genius idea which hasn’t already been pointed out by EVERY SINGLE PERSON. Such genius from someone who didn’t read a single post of the thread. Hold on while I delete my assault troops, since they’re not snipers.
