I can't help thinking that return fire should be the other way around

I’m happy that return fire has been nerfed in the latest patch, it’s a change that was badly needed.

However I feel that the aspect of it whereby return fire is performed by the unit that just received damage, and that other units which are stood around it don’t return fire is back to front. Surely the unit that just got shot is the one which would be least capable of having the capability to shoot back, you pretty much blow something’s leg off right now, and it’ll still have the wherewithal to fire back at you, whilst all of its mates are just stood around chewing the fat.

I think setting return fire so that it doesn’t trigger on the damaged unit, and then giving other units a percentage chance to return fire (which could be tweaked for balance based on unit type and/or perception stat) would be a far more organic way of doing things.

NB - Either way, you also need to let the firing unit have the chance to move back into cover (something that could also be stat based using the speed attribute if you don’t want it to be an automatic action).

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For mention, it’s one more mechanism that dis-balance longer range shooting and shorter range shooting, in favor of longer range. This dis balance is a current general weakness of game design.

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It would make a lot more sense if it worked that way, though from the enemy side, it would only barely change how annoying it is, since it only subtracts 1 from the list. Maybe a combo of that + making it a bit more rare ability on pandora side would be ideal.

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I generally hate it because (sorry for repeating myself here) the ability exists outside of time and space, ignoring core mechanics like Action Points and Will. I’m just waiting for the mod to disable that atrocity.

Interruption is a classic in fact, Jagged Alliance series.

This is not Jagged Alliance.

(edit) I misread that. I suppose you meant interrupting the return fire ?

Ok it wasn’t clear, interrupt movement when an enemy is discovered. This is classic, there’s at least JA series, but it gives an option to setup this for each mercenary.

Such move intercept is part of the anti Fireaxis design approach, that is maximum fairness for discovering new enemies. With new XCOM it’s much more gambling, so more thrill, but more RNG too each time you move.

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Yeah, in JA you had something similar.
But it wasn’t always happening. I cannot remember what decided if you get an interrupt or not. I was young and didn’t fully understand the rules of the game. I just still remember that I was always confused why it sometimes gave me an interrupt and sometimes it didn’t. However, if the rules are clear then that’s a good feature.

I think the problem with return fire is that there is no counter. No trade off. There is nothing to take into account, nothing to exploit or tactically prepare, nothing to manipulate it’s performance for or against you.
It just happens. Kind of a free overwatch.

There should be specific rules for when it happens, and those rules should be exploitable for maximum effect, and on the other side those rules should enable the enemy to avoid return fire by playing clever.

My 2 cent

There are a few rules to RF, actually:

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return fire has a number of conditions to trigger.

triggers upon getting attacked
-enemy has to be within 50% of the return firing characters perception range, modified by stealth and conditions (aka nighttime)
-triggering attack has to be ranged, RF will not trigger on melee.
-if the triggering attack applies or the unit is affected by the paralyzed (not just adding stacks, it must actually hit the paralyzed threshold), panicked or dazed condition, RF will not trigger.
-unit has to be able to perform RF after attack, gun must be intact, number of arms needs to be enough, unit has to survive the triggering attack and there must be ammo in the weapon.
-weapon needs to be direct fire, and the RF unit needs to be proficient.
-RF will not trigger is line of effect is blocked, even with weapons that have damage penetration and could hit targets behind a wall.

typical counters include
-blowing arm off/destroying the weapon.
-applying a status, like using a cannon to daze or the priests induce panic
-using long range characters, like snipers to attack from outside of perception range
-using indirect fire from launchers or grenades, while staying behind obstacles.
-using melee weapons, or bashing

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I’m with the original OP on this and always have been. It makes absolutely no sense for the target of the initiating shot to be the only one who can RF - they should be cowering behind cover avoiding a hail of bullets.

In response to @Dreepa’s comment, as you can see from the responses above, there are a whole host of rules that trigger RF, and for experienced players they can be manipulated to your advantage.

The way that RF got nerfed is imho one of the main reasons why alpha-striking became such a big thing in the game. All of a sudden, you could literally run out into the open, stick your shotgun against your target’s head and blow it off, with no comeback from the other side! So instead of getting shot to pieces by the target’s buddies laying down covering fire - which is what should happen - you can waltz half-way across the map, merrily committing mass murder without any comeback at all.

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I like RF mechanics, liked it more when units that were around the shoot area, responded.

I also think it should respond to melee attacks.

Come on give 'em a break. Melee has to have some advantage. It works both sides.

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It made more sense, and punished pushing too far ahead. Still, it was nerfed for are a reason - I don’t think it was good that enemy could maw you down, on your turn, because you took a shot at them.

Overall, I liked XCOM’s “Covering Fire” much more.

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It would make a lot more sense if it worked that way, though from the enemy side, it would only barely change how annoying it is, since it only subtracts 1 from the list. Maybe a combo of that + making it a bit more rare ability on pandora side would be ideal.

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For mention, it’s one more mechanism that dis-balance longer range shooting and shorter range shooting, in favor of longer range. This dis balance is a current general weakness of game design. It would make a lot more sense if it worked that way, though from the enemy side, it would only barely change how annoying it is, since it only subtracts 1 from the list. Maybe a combo of that + making it a bit more rare ability on pandora side would be ideal.

1 Like