Okay, just F Return fire!
It needs a drastic change!
One suggestion I have, is that if you hit an enemies weapon - that it should disable Return Fire for that turn.
To me, this would give you atleast SOME option to take out a single targets weapon without having to shoot at the weapon multiple times to break it.
Shooting the weapon should at the very least force the enemy (or your soldier) to be to staggered to properly return fire directly!
As provided by this example here - it is impossible to shot this enemy without taking guaranteed damage back, as the enemy can not miss, and there is no way to destroy his weapon in one attack.
Now imagine instead, that I shoot his weapon in this picture, thus, temporarily disabling his ability to retaliate, and I engage with the rest of my unit safely.
This ofcourse, doesn’t neccesarily fix the problem of Multiple enemies Returning fire with perfect accuracy at the same time… so still need some further ideas to fix that!
But for those smaller engagements, it should atleast prevent you from taking extreamly uneccesary damage from a single enemy and unlimited retaliation. -.-
In my opinion return fire would be pretty fixed if it triggered after the attacker had returned to their cover position after firing rather than when they are still standing in the open. Currently it makes shooting at something with return fire from heavy cover just the same as shooting from right out in the open as return fire triggers before the return to cover animation has occurred. This little change would add more tactical depth to engaging opponents with return fire.
Arm/weapon damage isn’t a bad idea for temporarily disrupting return fire though, perhaps dramatically reducing its accuracy would help.
Also a great idea.
At the very least a million times better than the developers geniosu idea of completely making cover worthless in a genre that puts ALOT of focus behind taking cover! XD
Have you maybe considered not shooting enemies at point blank when you know they can return fire? I see this as blaming the game mechanics for your poor tactical decisions.
I think it simply should use the action points you have left after the turn ends … if you do not have action points, you cannot return fire. Perhaps not as expensive as a normal shot, but still IMHO it should be tied to your actual AP.
OH NO! CLEARLY I MISSED THIS OBVIOUS IDEA… -.-
This was meant as an example for what a guaranteed hit at the enemy weapon can look like, clever boi.
At any rate, the range at which Return Fire triggers is still way to long.
So the alternative to engaging enemies at range means that you would just run away from your target to engage it.
Also, ignoring that this enemy RUNS UP TO YOU, like a suicide bomber!
They litterally run up and just stand in the middle of your group.
The fire sluggs make sense that they have this suicidal programing - these enemies should not do that, they should try and play with some preservation in mind.
And even so, there should nevertheless be options to handle Return Fire in close range.
What does it matter what order your soldiers fire in? If you have a team of snipers, and want to play Benny Hill with the hugging-AI, as your snipers whittle down whatever given HP bar, you can. Or you could possibly bring several snipers (good luck recruiting them).
Otherwise, whoever fires first will take damage, no way around it. I have trouble believing you’ve played the game if you think you can manage this with LoS. Maybe you can give us an example?
I have to wholeheartedly agree here. RF is just too much to deal with, at least as early as the first hours. I can’t even get through one mission against rogue Jericho soldiers without guaranteed losing at least one soldier and I only have four with the recruitment option not even done researching.
Either RF needs to only occur once per round or needs some way of being disabled, i.e. disabling their head or arm.
The real issue of return fire is that you don’t go back into cover. Valkyria Chronicles has return fire, but it lets you go back into cover, and you don’t suffer from head-shots while in the cover (strange, but it works). Also, VC has the benefit that with skill, you can almost always kill enemies before they counter-fire.
If the cover issue is solved, this feature will get playable. For now, it is honestly not, and it would be better to disable it until it is.
Other possible balancing for Return Fire include:
Greatly reduce accuracy.
Require some amount of Action Point left over to perform this.
Drain Will Power each time you use this. (Being shot at should drain will power, honestly)
Disable it under certain conditions, such as attack from 100 - 180 degrees from your front. I think VC might have done that?
Something I will mention, is on the harder difficulties the enemies have a lot of HP and armour. Often, you would need to hit with two full AR blasts to disable an arm, which requires you to be at point-blank range.
Totally agree, and being the self-proclaimed strategy guru I thought I was and jumping straight to the harder difficulties it has made RF a nightmare of a problem.
bang on… going back into cover before the return fire makes perfect sense. at the moment return fire is horrifically broken… I just had one of my guys with RF mind controlled in the middle of the team and he span in 360 circles shooting everyone who shot at the guy who mind controlled him. It literally looked like someone with a bad aimbot in first person shooter games…
Yep, I think that’s an important point some here seem to forget.
I’ve read comments from people, such as jrhebert, that try to make it seem like you just throw in a grenade or make a simple shot at an opponent’s weapon and hey presto!, no RF.
Those solutions don’t take into account harder difficulties or how long it can take to whittle down a weapons health when you’re firing from range. We can’t just run around with a squad of weapon-destroying snipers all the time, and even if we could, that’d be boring and downright bizarre.
Indeed, it could be argued that the fact we are even talking about using snipers to NOT shoot enemies but instead shoot their weapons is outright bizarre, hehe
EDIT: Disabling weapons/appendages on large, monstrous creatures does fit well though; like you’re pinpointing weapons on a battleship/tank or something.
Use grenades (launched or thrown) from behind cover. Move or dash to where RF is limited or blocked and blow crab arms off with grenades. This is by far the most effective method, as arthron arms blow off easily.
Move! You can often position cover so that fewer enemies can RF, or so that the cover at least catches some rounds for you. Dash is helpful here. Again, focus your fire on the MG arms. That’s arms, not the weapons. The arms are soft targets.
never direct fire with lightly armored troops when they’re in range of multiple RF enemies. Ideally, whittle the RFing numbers down with other troops so that only 1-2 left that you can disable with free aim. If not, back the F away or use overwatch.
Heavies can take it for a round or two. If you have no choice but to soak up some RF, have the heavies do it first. Helps with the whittling down process (especially since the Hel cannon often kills or stuns at least one enemy pretty reliably at close range).
Finally, if the position is simply untenable, reposition and use overwatch. You don’t have to fire into a mob of arthrons in front of you. You sacrifice free aim by using overwatch, but you trigger no RF and benefit more from cover.
Reminds me of how in some games you can knock enemies out of overwatch by doing any sort of damage or by using flashbangs, suppressing fire, etc,.
It’d be interesting to have an extra tactical option or two that doesn’t rely on grinding down their arm health or destroying their weapon outright.
It seems to me that a big problem people are having with RF is their own impatience. There are few times when you are genuinely backed into a corner and have no option but to be a damage sponge.
Maybe.
But it just feels like a WAY to common perk for the amount of workaround it need. it just ain’t a fun mechanic for a lot us.
It’s like taking Xcom’s overly overwatching enemies, only, all enemies “overwatch” without any investment of AP, risk, position, decently long range on it, etc.
It just feels like a cheap mechanic, and tuning it down to be more situational, more managable, or improving the “step out” mechanics would make the game feel less like - as Rookie put it rather humorously - “playing Benny Hill with the hugging-AI”.
