I would add, And the player has to be willing to look for it. 
We’ll just have to differ in opinion there.
You put the onus on the player, I put the onus on the game developer.
I’m sure it’s in the middle somewhere lol
That is not fair, because I believe we are able to find a compromise that is not entirely the one and not entirely the other but could maybe fit both worlds.
I personally would ACTUALLY not see any more tiers in PP without BEFORE balancing the damage buffs from skills.
But when the whole thing is better balanced, then why not some more upgrades that the player can improve to as long as the base horizontal system keeps more or less as it is. Why not an upgraded laser AR, why not especially an upgraded Deceptor and of course also why not upgraded armor? It must have it’s place of course and this had to be found. Additionally it should not lead into a master race only to get these things as soon as possible that is then maybe also exploitable (one other downside of tiered systems). Resource costs has also taken into account, actually there is not much room for upgrades with the spare resources that we get (without abusing some mechanics).
Just my opinion 
We can find some middle way with you @MadSkunky but it’s impossible with @walan as we see from the replies over there as we see at replies. Walan just does not want it because he likes that so. I can’t understand him as he can’t understand me. We don’t need to understand eachother but respect. So for those reasons, Walan should discuss with people who likes the game as he wants and same for me. He just does not want to lose the game he likes and I say, it’s not enough to have just he wants… We are a bit opposite…
I don’t know exactly what he really wants, only he can explain that best. But I think you misinterpret some of what he wrote like this:
For me it sound pretty clear, that he is not entirely against any improvement in form of upgrades. Honestly, I don’t understand your answer you gave to this quote.
Edit:
And before he only tried to explain what some others said about the downsides of tiered systems (including myself).
He tries to say that, the items in game is enough but they could be get “later” in the game to create the improvement feeling. So he means, you can get the NY heavy armor maybe later so you can feel that you get better things in time. And I try say that, you will stuck with “one” item again, early or later does not matter…
He is clearly against tier system which you can get the same thing but better… he was enough clear about that and I don’t think I get it wrong.
Again, only @walan can explain that best. I understand it different, but maybe I’m also wrong. But what I definitely never would do is to exclude him from any further discussion. He has his opinions and of course he should bring them in and at the end maybe he is also willing to compromise with the other side.
Edit: You know, take all opinions into account in order to find the best solution for everyone 
Sorry but there is nothing like that in earth. 
I don’t say as it’s something bad… It’s just the nature of it. We never can find any solution on anything which best for everyone. As we discussed things at this forum, I can count you at least “10” best solutions of their owners. We can find a possible midway with some of us but again some people will have terrible results with others best solution. This is the reason I tell that, me and Walan won’t find a solution which is good enough for us…
My English is not that good for an extensive explanation.
Short: Probably not.
Not as long there are damage buffs and AP generation or AP reduction skills. This abilities work like multiplier. If you can shoot one time with a next tier weapon it’s okay. But 4 shoots via QA with next tier shotgun is a big deal and for me a game breaking thing.
No matter how: I like side-grades way more then upgrades.
Edit: It’s a matter of taste.
Side-Grades open up new tactical choices. With the new weapon B you have additional options. The old weapon A stays useful in specific Szenarios.
With upgrades the old weapon A is not relevant anymore.
I hope this can only be done by a moderator. 
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These two don’t have to be mutual exclusive
@drages: See …
And this is then the best solution for everyone as long as “some of us” are the majority. You will find of course at any time someone that will definitely not like that, but hey, that’s life.
I highly assume this is exactly what the devs try to find out, and it seems to me not to be very easy. Discussions like these can help them and even more if we by ourself get into an productive discourse … without excluding anyone.
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Even if I’m not a moderator, if we all calm down sometimes before answering impulsive this would help a lot.
What’s about weapon A1, A2 and A3 and as another option (sidegrade) B1, B2 and B3?
A2 is an upgrade over A1 in all area’s?
This can probably be done better with weapons mods?
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It’s hard to discuss with imaginary things. After 1 more year, when the development is done and mod tools are up then @walan can check my mod and maybe like it… maybe we got a so great game with everything done right and find a midway to all of us…
Maybe c19 will mutate and we will see real pandorans… maybe pandorans play PP too… who knows…
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Not more to say …
Why not, at the end it is the same, you have to spend resources to get something better and the enemies have to evolve faster or even more to get the balance right.
Modules would have also the advantage to give the player even more choices to get what he likes the most (range, burst, faster shooting … almost limitless possibilities). They can compatible to all side grades or even to all weapons (as in FXCom). And on top you can also do some tiers …
I’m open to anything as long as the skills get balanced so that we can go any way to more improvements, choices or upgrades.
Game Devs, are not Mind Readers. Nor are Players of the games. AISI, the Devs should listen to the wants of the player, and accommodate where plausible and possible. But then what fun would a game be, if you do not take up the challenge, and figure how to beat it. With, or without help from Forums such as this?
Off Topic.
I find your English to be better than most native speakers/writers.
Well I never said they were or should be minder readers and I agree, the Dev’s should listen to players and reasonably accommodate what fits within the vision and constraints of the game design/genre/philosophy.
“Fun” is subjective. I find if I put it on veteran or hader, it’s like taking my head and pounding it into a wall (though that was true for Rookie too when the game very first released). I would spend hours trying ot get…well practically no where. While other people were playing on the hardest mode and going, “Man, this game is so easy”.
It was definitely NOT fun and not a challenge, it entirely outclassed me because of my vert casual playstyle. The forums weren’t really any help, because their suggestions were to do things in a way that wasn’t fun or interesting to me. I put the game down and hadn’t come back to try and play again until patch 1.6.
And it was kind of hit and miss, but the difficult was better. Rookie wasn’t not too hard for me and veteran a bit more of a challenge than I liked…They’ll never get the balance right for me, but as long as the get something close and something in my range, I’m happy.
And that’s how I think it should be…get close…eventually mods will exist which will let people tweak it to more fine details of ease or challenge.
and that applies to your challenges and paths in game as well, in my opinion. It’s always a balance, catering to all these different and some games have an easier time than others. Seems like they are mostly on the right path.
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Looks like the latest patch fixed the OP issue for Late-Mid game to Late game. Very few One Shot Kills I am seeing now.
Coming back to this old thread because I have taken a screenshot which shows how strong the Scyther is when used with a specific setup (Assault / Infiltrator with Vengeance Torso) and also to get an impression of its AoE effect in an arc up to 3 tiles distance:
This is a triple kill with 1 AP usage, the Close quarters specialist perk isn’t really needed, it deals 600 damage without this perk thanks to Sneak Attack, enough to kill all the foes. And even when SA should be nerfed, in this situation it would be 2 attacks to kill all three enemies, 2 AP spend and all AP back because of Rapid Clearance.
My Terminator build No. 1, IMO beats anything that is also possible and no personal perk is really necessary.
The one in the screenshot has additionally anything that makes this even stronger, CQS, Quarterback and Thief, so full stealth and with high speed (base 24, with Frenzy 36).
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IMHO, this was Devs’s response (trolling) to player complaints about a bad fight with melee weapons.
+ trolling to “complaints about OP skills”
PS. Team of 5 Wizards
Feedback on Phoenix Point as a XCOM Veteran
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