How about “Rally the Troops” with an effect only within a 10 field radius (or 5?)?
In my opinion, this is also easier for the new players to understand … since they would no longer be surprised why the second soldier cannot perform this skill.
How about “Rally the Troops” with an effect only within a 10 field radius (or 5?)?
Maybe, though there is the possibility of bunching up the soldiers.
I like the one rally per turn per squad because I have been playing like that for a long time and I know it works.
If I be allowed to dream I would like Rally to be a squad’s leader ability… And for there to be squads that you can name and appoint leader… But that’s a different story
While I would like to see skills nerfed - the devs haven’t got round to that so the skills I proposed were with the current game in mind - I’m in 2 minds about 1AP melee weapons but I think the main reason why it’s a problem is it allows assaults with rapid clearance to move, attack and recover 2 AP.
I’m suggesting skills that would make the bezerker on par with a high level shotgun assault, which is currently the best for short range.
If the devs get round to nerfing everything then they could nerf these proposed skills as well.
I’m just putting thoughts out there to make a good melee class. The current bezerker is also amazing, but not for melee reasons.
Don’t get me wrong, I also think that serkers need a rework. However, I think because of the AP cost of attacking with melee weapons there is some misunderstanding as to how powerful these weapons actually are.
Take shotgun assault, for example. With dash and quickaim limited to one use per turn, and rally to once per turn per squad, it’s very difficult to maintain a rapid clearance loop, because shotguns are CQC weapons and ineffective against strong armor. You need to be really close to target a vulnerable part, if there is one. So you really need 3 APs to make a kill - one to move, 2 to shoot. Which kind of the same as with melee weapons, only shotguns at one tile distance usually deal more damage, unless the target has strong armor all over. However, make melee attack cost 1 AP and everything changes in the opposite direction, and more so with damage buffs.
That’s why my feeling at the moment is that serkers need some once per turn skill that would allow to close distance and strike for 2AP.
I think it is also viable to make some melee weapons cost 1 AP to use. The sword that does 50 bleeding, specifically. Why? Because it doesn’t do enough damage to allow rapid clearance loops, but it’s still useful because the bleeding will probably cause the target die before it can retaliate.
Melee weapons and arguably pistols are very effective against high armor, low HP opponents. Humans, basically. Especially the Pure and the Foresaken. And they are quite slow, so you can ambush them.
You suggest good class for one class system. For multi class system you must think, how it will work with another classes.
Same make devs - they make good classes but without any thoughts how it will work in multi class system.
Whether it’s 1AP or 2AP for melee weapons, I think the damage per AP should be equivalent to a point blank shotgun blast, which is what they’re competing against - it shouldn’t be higher.
If this involves reducing base damage of melee weapons or reducing the percentage damage boosts of the skills alongside 1AP weapons or have some weapons 1AP and some 2AP then that’s fine with me.
My main aim is to see a melee orientated bezerker class which is as strong as the shotgun assault.
I think all human factions should have access to smoke grenades and flashbangs in the same way they all have access to medkits - smoke grenades definitely make sense for bezerkers that need to close ground with ranged troops. Sonic grenades can be the Synedrion upgrade to flashbangs and I think Anu should get a viral smoke grenade once they’ve researched advanced viral weapons. Smoke should block line of site and impose severe aim penalties if troops are shooting through smoke to represent blind firing.
I don’t like dash much and another skill that’s similar seems unappealing to me.
When I played this game 1st time I used lots of bezerkers as I was buddying with Anu and I just found it was better to cross class them into shotgun assaults, which are very powerful with armour break and adrenaline rush on top of all the assault shenanigans.
The multi-class system is where things go into really OP territory, they should heavily nerf skills across the board IMO
2AP for melee is too much. All melee attack must cost 1AP. But specialist in melee must have skills to make him better with melee weapon then other classes.
At the first, remove from game aug torso with -1AP (replace with something else). Give this ability as passive low level skill to berserk or make for all melee weapons 1AP attack cost. Then remove damage buff to melee from heavy class. Remove all bonuses to melee from common skills. Make skill +30% damage and -20% accuracy count only to shooting weapon.
And only after that lets talk about how to change berserker class.
Forget this word ‘nerf’ please. The most stupid that can one make - is nerf everything and have unplayable game.
Many skills need restriction to use per turn. Some need rework as part of multi class system. Nerf by itself can do nothing good.
It’s a shorthand word for making skills less overpowering - that could mean limited uses per mission, cooldowns, less dramatic effects, skills linked to specific weapons/equipment - basically reducing the impact of power builds for troops which turn each soldier into doom guy - soldiers are supposed to be human, not superhuman.
Nobody wants to make the game unplayable but tactical missions cease to be interesting once the soldiers in your squad reach a certain power level - I cakewalked the last mission without breaking a sweat because my soldiers became so unbelievably strong. It’s not even just about alpha strikes either - you can control and shutdown any retaliation attempts in other ways too, without just killing/crippling everything in a turn. I’d like to see less OPness to allow more scope for tactical play.
It can’t be equivalent because it’s essentially different. Shotgun is low damage per large number of projectiles. Melee is high damage per single strike. Shotguns do more damage against exposed (body parts of) target, melee weapons allow to punch through armor through sheer force. And it’s a good thing too, because they are different solutions to different tactical problems.
There is no precedent of any effect that makes the aiming reticle change size on the fly (i.e. change accuracy). I don’t want to say it can’t be done, as I don’t know, but in any case it seems like a big change. Even introducing something like smoke grenades that only block LOS is a big change, with unpredictable results for balancing.
What I mean is that though perhaps not a bad idea as a new feature, it’s a stretch to think of it as a balancing element for melee/serkers.
Personally, I think dash has an unfairly bad rep - as a single use skill in a limited mobility build, there is nothing wrong with it.
I’m playing now Legendary, without skill spamming, not exceeding 20 in the Speed attribute and not using Frenzy, and I can’t see any problem with it, TBH.
In any case, charge would not be a dash, but a move and attack, limited to single use per turn.
It would be very helpful if you could tell about your experiences in this regard.
Armour break on a shotgun makes armour irrelevent. Rageburst on a shotgun will bruteforce through anything, especially if it’s the Anu shred shotgun - these are what melee bezerkers are competing against. There are 2 options, either take the nerf hammer to everything or make a melee class as OP as the others - it’s one or the other. The skills I proposed would not be superior to a cross class shotgun doom guy but they would be comparable.
As for smoke grenades creating aim penalties, it’s something that would be nice to have but perhaps difficult for programmers to implement. They could definitely make it so that soldiers have an aim penalty while in smoke tiles though, and similarly being in smoke could also give you damage resistance to simulate being harder to hit even if the targetting reticle can’t be programmed to change size. The same should also apply with panda mist.
Smoke grenades would be handy for melee/short range soldiers as they shut down line of sight for long range snipers, so they would help bezerkers indirectly.
As for dash, I already feel that soldiers become highly mobile as they level up and dash just exaggerates it further, even if used sparingly.
What I mean by control is that you don’t need to kill everything quickly to rob the enemy of any ability to retaliate - it can be done over several turns but the enemy become almost helpless.
You take a party with a mix of cross class soldiers that includes technicians, heavies, assaults, snipers and infiltrators and you use their different skill sets to block everything the AI tries to do.
Long range AI? - rockets to destroy panda’s cover and then snipers to kill off the ones who aren’t gimped and bleeding - infiltrator snipers can fire from open ground in total safety - why take crossbows when the DLC allows silent sniper rifles?
Big nasty gribbly? - snipers and hellcannons will see it off in one turn when used by a high level party
Up close and personal? - heavies with warcry gimp all nearby pandas to 2 AP, forcing them to move or attack, but not both. Assaults with dash and shotguns or piranhas will easily deal with the others.
Acid chirons? - High level technicians laugh at acid
Any other retaliation? - good luck getting through heavy armour plus 2 casts of electric reinforcement, plus heals
Mind control? - top level parties have no issues sending an assault to shotgun the head off sirens, but this is also shut down through clarity heads or priests. I haven’t tried it but I think neural heads would disrupt chirons and block mind control too.
The defences your soldiers can build up eventually get so strong that you don’t even need to alpha strike as retaliation from the enemy becomes so ineffectual that it’s of no concern.
That’s fine and good late in the game, but they show up much earlier than that. Plus aren’t you using an OP, that has been called out for nerfing?
I’m saying that the game ceases to be interesting in the later stages of the game simply because your squads become invincible, which is a pity. It’s also why the devs or a modder team should take the nerf hammer to all these OP skills and combos so that the game remains interesting throughout the game.
The skill may be OP but the game makes it available so I’ll use it - I play ironman but I’ll use whatever skills and equipment that are available to me to win.
That’s fair, but then at a certain point the game becomes a cleaning exercise. If you cast double reinforcement twice every turn and then recover, how can your soldiers ever get hurt? If you cast frenzy on assaults with damage buffs kitted out for max speed with dash, how can you not wipe out most Pandas in the first turn? [+ other examples of using speed/accuracy/damage buffs]
If we are to assume that those issues are not going to be fixed, I see no point in doing anything with serkers. Why? If you want to use them to bash a crab in the head with a medkit, just cast double reinforcement and give them all the time they need.
That’s why I (and quite a few others) play with self imposed restrictions - first because the game is really enjoyable that way (once you are at the point where you are now, when you know enough about the game mechanics that you find it too easy to play without restrictions), and second because a lot of intricacies of the game (and Phoenix Point is a very intricate and complex game) only become apparent when you turn off the OP combos.
Yep, they are valid solutions, but not without their own demerits. Even with RB, regular shotguns can’t deal any damage to heavily armored targets (Scylla, for example). Against softer, but still armored targets, it’s a waste of ammo and WPs, not to mention that sometimes targets move during the RB. The Harrower is effective against armor, but ineffective against soft targets. I actually usually prefer the Iconoclast. You can cast armor break, but it’s expensive in WPs. Also, can’t cast it after adrenaline rush.
Anyway, for my 2 cents, serkers need a little boost with melee weapons (which I see in the charge ability, that I would make to be 1AP worth of movement plus an attack for 3WP and 2AP) , and melee weapons that do damage over time can have 1AP cost. However, making melee weapons cost 1 AP as a rule… Well, you can experiment with the bionic melee torso to see what happens.
+1 The range of weapons, especially with range damage is in my opinion unfair (does not allow countermeasures if it has not been detected early). I don’t know about you, but I hit my bombs very well (unless there are trees in the way). This means BOTH, chiron and Boombard skill.
Electric Reinforcement: a shame!
Although I agree with you @ Diavid123 with the “OP” skills, I would recommend @VOLAND’s approach to change the GENERAL “OP” problems (mobility, accuracy, damage) before working with the other “specific” ( skills, combi) “OP” problems. At least they should then test what is still really “OP”.
Problems with 1AP for melee only with +100% damage from skills. If you can gain maximum 50%, then it will be fine
So in theory, DDA should counter OP skills/multii-class late game. If the player is now capable of wiping the field in 1 - 2 turns with no injuries/causalities the DDA should kick into overdrive and tilt the playing field the other way. But, then we have OP enemies that need nerfing.
The DDA could kick in dozens of times, the enemy could outnumber you 20 to 1, with multiple scyllas and chirons and sirens - when your squaddies reach a certain point and they get all the best toys then they’re invincible. That’s what I meant by control, you wouldn’t be able to alpha strike all of them but it wouldn’t matter either.
As for the other posts, I understand why a lot of you restrict yourselves but I think I’m going to let the devs do some balance updates and bring out the next DLC and then come back to the game.
Phoenix Point has the potential to be amazing, and I think it will get there in time, but there are so many OP skills out there that I’d find it frustrating to be actively tying my hands behind my back when playing the game - part of the fun for me with complex games it’s creating power combos, the problem is that the power combos are so so strong in this game.