Berserkers and melee need fixing

[conductiv]

personally I would overhaul melee to differentiate it from bash more…but effectively keep bash as is.

note that, without overhauling how skills work, stat stacking and certain problematic capstone skills (in this thread, rageburst, electric reinforcement, sneak attack (though not explicitly mentioned, most infiltrator builds rely heavily on the passive double damage) and adrenaline rush. the games back and forth goes out the window and it is basically an alpha striking murder fest (or practical invulnerability as I have personally little experience in using electric reinforcement). there is a need to tackle both…this means that if you want to look at something specific like melee, you have to avoid comparing it to a lategame murder build that relies on skill-spam.

the comparison of the hammer with a shotgun is actually a solid one, though very different tools they both function at point blank range and are dedicated weapons…unlike for example the buttstock of a hellcannon (bash), and in my opinion weapons that function at that range have to be either extremely lethal or very crippling.

now we can make melee just statistically more powerful by ramping up the damage or reducing its AP cost…this would improve melee…but you would basically just be steering it to outclass bashing in a straight up damage/AP ratio and be roughly on par with the total damage output of an iconoclast. in my opinion this isn’t all that great.

we could change the systems involved, bash isn’t a dedicated weapon, a shotgun is…no surprise…a gun, and a melee weapon never had the ability to aim for anything specific, but it can’t miss either. so I was thinking about giving dedicated melee weapons a zone of control, much like the zone of control in tabletop games and games like battlebrothers. attacks with guns against units armed with dedicated melee don’t work, getting away from a dedicated melee armed unit provokes a reaction attack.

there is more to it, but this is the main point of my suggestion to change how melee works.

[David123]

Yeah you could introduce new mechanics such as melee engaged, melee riposte, parry, attacks of opportunity - these were my thoughts with regard to the close quarters combatant skill but these types of things could become common among melee units if that’s the route they want to go down. If you play a game like 40K or Necromunda then melee engagement means a unit can only use dedicated melee weapons or pistols, which means ranged units are in deep trouble if they get locked in melee by dedicated melee units. It would be nice to see these types of mechanics in Phoenix Point, though it’s probably a lot of work and AI programming for the devs - perhaps part of a DLC?

[VOLAND]

@conductiv

personally I would overhaul melee to differentiate it from bash more…but effectively keep bash as is

My impression (perhaps a wrong one) is that bash with high strength (which is where bash competes with melee in damage) causes a lot of damage to the weapon. (I was doing it with a STR 32 character and the HC received 40 damage from every hit).

Does anyone know how the damage to the weapon from bashing works?

@David123

Yeah you could introduce new mechanics such as melee engaged, melee riposte, parry, attacks of opportunity - these were my thoughts with regard to the close quarters combatant skill

I think that is something definitely worth exploring, sorry I was so focused on the 1AP and damage buff that forgot to comment on this

[conductiv]

@Yokes

Overall good ideas. I would change few things.

• Melee AP cost to 25% always, not only for Berserker with activated ability.
• So level 2 skill I would change to grant that 50% melee damage bonus and stun damage equal to that increased damage.
• Level 3 I would completely change - remove that 25% less damage resistance (such protection should be granted by some special armor, not passive skill - I’m not sure if I would leave that bonus anywhere). Ignores ovewatch is too unrealistic, berserker doesn’t go into shadow plane to go past enemy defences. But what I would give here is passive engagement of enemy, so enemy starts turn with only 3 AP when adjacent to berserker and can’t use most of the weapons except melee, bash, handguns and maybe shotguns (also applies to most aliens attacks, but many of them have melee so berserker still can be screwed). Also any enemy movement (entering, leaving, moving inside) in tiles adjacent to berserker provokes 1 attack of opportunity in enemy turn if he is equipped with melee weapon.
• Level 6 I would change to be activated ability to grant mind control immunity for like 2 or 3 turns. Immunity to panic I would include in level 1 berserker training - that should be their main trait that they don’t panic. And also disabled body parts should function only during that special time when Ignore Pain is active. When it ends all disabled body parts stop to give functions. Current passive immunity is so powerful that even Scylla compared to such berserker is a little bug squicking because of disabled leg or arm.

It would be wrong to not reply to the person that revived this thread, as well as specify my view of melee more to the berserker class.

the conditions of my previous post still apply, the suggestions or comments I make here should not be looked at in a vacuum…a lot of things have to change to problematic skills (most of them capstones) in order to make it all work.

-I would not reduce melee AP cost, and actually rework the augment that gives it at the moment.
-I would not change armor break to a damage bonus, I’m far more likely to go with amelee only charge like attack here to bypass the “armor break with a shotgun, AR or LMG” while at the same time giving a closer skill that wouldn’t require multi-classing into assault for the “dash” ability. I think I suggested a single use per turn charge before to replace armor break.
-close quarters combatant is definitely better on an armor, and the engagement idea is actually quite solid but since I would basically give a similar ability to the weapon group “melee weapons” as a whole it wouldn’t do much for the berzerker…with the exception of the enemy AP reduction that is.
-while I agree that ignore pain can be a bit…excessive…with how it works. it is currently an easy to understand ability…as such I would put a really low priority on changing it. not that moving immunity to panic to berzerker training is a bad idea, but I have a different melee focused passive in mind here.

-adrenaline rush does need a rework to make it non-functional with rapid clearance…as such I’d make adrenaline rush drop off all active buffs of the user and prevent the use of WP skills while it is active. it retains its use with heavy weapons, but without the AP recycle or dash support it would be much less of a map sweeper.

for melee weapons as a whole: grant a zone of control buff to the melee weapon user when used…all adjectent tiles are covered, gun-type weapons cannot be fired when in the zone of control (including pistols and shotguns, for panda’s any non melee weapon is a gun type), faction troops or playes can still use tool group (medkit, neurazer) or bash. moving out of or into a tile of the zone of control triggers an attack of opportunity. the amount of attacks that can be made is not limited.

notes:
-bashing is not a melee weapon, and does not trigger this effect.
-the neurazor is a tool group, and does not trigger this effect
-tentacles mutation does trigger this effect
-to avoid the run up blast with a shotgun and then switch to melee, the buff triggers after an attack is made, and only remains in effect as long as a melee weapon is equipped. the buff drops off at the start of the melee weapons using units next turn*.
-auto disables arthron machinegun (and hence return fire) in melee, makes the venom head+grenade launcher+MG arthron combo a viable target. beware however, that the AI might decide that eating a melee attack is worth it to get the guns working again.
-combo with viral and panic allows for “free” attacks…be it that setting this up is slow.

for the berzerker and melee panda’s.
*berzerker training, zone of control is always active if a melee weapon is equipped.

notes:
-this allows zerkers to run up to targets and pin them with zone of control, block doorways/windows by standing next to them or use the shotgun shenanigans, in theory might combine well with sanctuary acids ability to devour armor, as the reaction attack triggers in the opponents turn and zerkers also get handgun proficiency. no other class will have the ability to use melee weapons as reactively as the berzerker can, flicking to or away from them as the situation demands
-this makes melee using panda’s a much greater threat, as they can now body block passages much more effectively. also point blank chiron (with stomper) or siren shotgun lobotomy attempts may end up accidentally turning the tables. also the suicidal run-up of some of the panda’s can be more threatening.
-helps out tritons, even though the triton support melee is relatively weak, it prevents zerker instant triton disable as melee already auto-detects pain chameleon and the triton is the only panda class the relies almost completely on human faction weapons. it allows tritons to at least flail at the berzerker if locked in melee

I’d still have to look into the melee weapon balance as a whole (at the moment, marduks fist is by far the strongest, the other ones should have competitive niche functions…especially the advanced melee weapons phoenix project research)

[Yokes]

@conductiv

-adrenaline rush does need a rework to make it non-functional with rapid clearance…as such I’d make adrenaline rush drop off all active buffs of the user and prevent the use of WP skills while it is active. it retains its use with heavy weapons, but without the AP recycle or dash support it would be much less of a map sweeper.

That is good idea.

@conductiv

for melee weapons as a whole: grant a zone of control buff to the melee weapon user when used

Just for any melee weapon anytime? Or maybe join it with melee proficiency? Inproficient units I suppose shouldn’t benefit from it.

@conductiv

all adjectent tiles are covered, gun-type weapons cannot be fired when in the zone of control (including pistols and shotguns, for panda’s any non melee weapon is a gun type)

ok, but let this debuff doesn’t apply for bigger units like faction vehicles, Chiron or Scylla.

@conductiv

the amount of attacks that can be made is not limited.

Wouldn’t that be too powerful? In rare cases it would allow for multiple attacks during enemy turn for example when couple of Arthrons get close to your melee wielding unit. And when you regain control on your turn you make another attacks? I would limit it to one per enemy turn, or at least make it so many times how much AP you have left in your previous turn (kind of overwatch but automatic)

But oveall great post. I like those ideas. Melee aliens would become more deadly and their insane damage could be lowered.

[conductiv]

@Yokes

@conductiv

for melee weapons as a whole: grant a zone of control buff to the melee weapon user when used

Just for any melee weapon anytime? Or maybe join it with melee proficiency? Inproficient units I suppose shouldn’t benefit from it.

you got me there, I pretty much auto-assumed proficiency with the users, the ability should only activate on proficient users, but is otherwise tied to melee weapons. I would even go as far as to replace the “chance to fumble” that is currently on melee for nonproficiency…with simply the absence of the zone of control ability.

@conductiv

all adjectent tiles are covered, gun-type weapons cannot be fired when in the zone of control (including pistols and shotguns, for panda’s any non melee weapon is a gun type)

ok, but let this debuff doesn’t apply for bigger units like faction vehicles, Chiron or Scylla.

the chiron, scylla and faction vehicles are often tough enough to simply move away, and both the chiron and scylla can come with melee weapons of their own (slugging match with scylla mandibles…I don’t think that is going to end well for the player, and the chiron stomper also deals a LOT of damage). so I didn’t think an exception for these groups is needed.

@conductiv

the amount of attacks that can be made is not limited.

Wouldn’t that be too powerful? In rare cases it would allow for multiple attacks during enemy turn for example when couple of Arthrons get close to your melee wielding unit. And when you regain control on your turn you make another attacks? I would limit it to one per enemy turn, or at least make it so many times how much AP you have left in your previous turn (kind of overwatch but automatic)

I personally don’t think it will be too powerful, keep in mind that for all classes save melee panda’s and the zerker, they still need to land an melee attack first to trigger the effect. and even if you are a zerker, if the enemy willingly closes to melee and takes a hit, there is a big chance that enemy has a melee attack of his own as well, and the attack does not end the enemy turn (and many panda melee attacks are 1 AP rather then player 2AP)

now it can grant multiple attacks on a single enemy on an enemy turn if said enemy decides to run past the player through the zone of control, clipping multiple tiles but this should be rare and only occur in desperate situations (if a player decides to trigger this, or when a panda is CC’d like panic rushing past a player) (every tile of movement should only trigger once, not once for leaving a tile and entering the next controlled tile, this should have been clarified by me)

I originally thought to make the trigger condition only “leaving” a tile that is in the zone of control, but deliberately beefed up the trigger potential to increase the value of my suggested berzerker passive, and lean the class into melee.

But oveall great post. I like those ideas. Melee aliens would become more deadly and their insane damage could be lowered.

yes, for the some pandorans in every case I would lower melee damage, most notably the arthron pincirs and siren slicers (not their viral injectors) and the triton vampiric arms…but not their paralysis arms. I would leave the big entities, mutog, chiron and scylla …to keep their current melee power