Venom torso arm

[TheDayBreaker100]

Anyine here actually use it?

[Architectus]

AHAHAHAHA…HAHAHA…no

I think the only reasons anyone actually uses the Venom torso is because of curiosity, or the 20% accuracy bonus it gives (to one-handed weapons).

The Venom torso arm ‘shoot spike’ ability DESPERATELY needs a buff. A big buff, at that.

[TheImp]

@Architectus

The Venom torso arm ‘shoot spike’ ability DESPERATELY needs a buff. A big buff, at that.

Well, it doesn’t need a buff, it needs a point, as in a reason to ever utilice such a thing. As it stands, it has none, what so ever.
This, the Resistor Head, and Tentacle Torso as mutations need a general boost too. As the only reason to use them is that you generally don’t have the materials to supply your soldiers with the armor they would use otherwise and you can over come that with juggling items around… in the hardest difficulty, as the others supply their items during recruitment.

[Yokes]

Tentacle Torso isn’t so bad with retaliation to melee. And if you will cast Onslaught on tentacle soldier, you get really powerful paralyze attack.

[Architectus]

@TheImp

Well, it doesn’t need a buff, it needs a point, as in a reason to ever utilice such a thing. As it stands, it has none, what so ever.

Venom Torso arm needs both a buff and a point

To ultimately make the Venom Torso mutation worth using would actually require a comprehensive rebalance of all underpowered or overpowered abilities, weapons, augmentations etc. within the game.

Should the Great Rebalance Revolution of Phoenix Point ever actually occur in my lifetime, then it would be possible for a rebalanced Venom Torso to finally become effective and genuinely worth using.

My personal opinion is that the Venom Torso arm ‘Shoot Spike’ ability should work similarly to how the Arthron Evolved Spitter Head does, but be like a better version of it.

I think it should cost 1 Action Point and 2 Will Points to fire it each time, with a profile similar to this:

Damage 15
Piercing 30
Poison 80
Effective Range of around 20, maybe more.

This would turn the Venom Torso arm into a strong damage-over-time weapon that uses Will Points as renewable ammunition, that can be replenished by the Recovery ability or other Will Point replenishment means. The Will Point cost limitation would prevent it from being spammed, and provide a reason to supplement Venom Torso arm attacks with pistol and hand grenade attacks as well (considering the one-handed weapon limitation that the Venom torso has).

Would this be enough to make the Venom Torso arm decent, or would it need more? Maybe the poison damage type itself needs changing and improving so that it also inflicts a debuff of some kind instead of just damage-over-time.

[Yokes]

@Architectus

Would this be enough to make the Venom Torso arm decent, or would it need more? Maybe the poison damage type itself needs changing and improving so that it also inflicts a debuff of some kind instead of just damage-over-time.

This is how I see it. Poison except damage over time PRIMARILY should lower stats of affected target. Then poison damage doesn’t have to be so high.

[Rainer]

@Yokes

This is how I see it. Poison except damage over time PRIMARILY should lower stats of affected target. Then poison damage doesn’t have to be so high.

Interesting. I like this concept. Can we mod this in? What are we thinking here?

• -25% movement speed, or -1AP?
• -10 to -20 Perception?
• -20 to -50% accuracy?
• All of the above and then some?

@Architectus

I think it should cost 1 Action Point and 2 Will Points to fire it each time, with a profile similar to this:

Damage 15
Piercing 30
Poison 80
Effective Range of around 20, maybe more.

I was originally considering something like this when it came to modding my own balance into the game.

@TheDayBreaker100

Anyine here actually use it?

Yeah, on my cannon-fodder Berserkers. Shield, Pistol, Hammer and maybe some grenades (with armor break) and loaded with stats (on Legend, so SP to create super-soldiers is difficult to come by). Not that cannon-fodder is needed in this game, but I try to restrict myself/roleplay so these things do end up having some use. The actual poison attack itself though, no, it has zero use right now as it is.

[Yokes]

@Rainer

Interesting. I like this concept. Can we mod this in?

I suppose that applying effects already available in the game along with poison status are not so hard to implement. Advanced modders probably can do this after checking abilities.

@Rainer

What are we thinking here?

For me it could be:

• -5% speed
• -5% accuracy
• -5% melee damage
• -2 perception
  for every 20 points in poison status, where 200 is max for debuffs. More poison would not limit these stats more. Penalties would be at 50% max, and 20 perception max.

I wouldn’t limit AP allowance, as this would be hard to scale with amount of poison.

[Architectus]

@Rainer

Interesting. I like this concept. Can we mod this in? What are we thinking here?

• -25% movement speed, or -1AP?
• -10 to -20 Perception?
• -20 to -50% accuracy?
• All of the above and then some?

@Yokes

For me it could be:

• -5% speed
• -5% accuracy
• -5% melee damage
• -2 perception
  for every 20 points in poison status, where 200 is max for debuffs. More poison would not limit these stats more. Penalties would be at 50% max, and 20 perception max.

I wouldn’t limit AP allowance, as this would be hard to scale with amount of poison.

That’s something to think and decide about when it comes to what kind of debuffs poison damage should have. It would make sense that the more poisoned an enemy/friendly is, the sicker and worse at fighting they become, so penalties to stats like movement speed, melee damage, accuracy and perception, seem appropriate.

Both sets of ideas quoted above are good. But the main choice to consider about attaching stat debuffs to Poison damage is whether it should be a flat percentage debuff regardless of how much poison damage is inflicted, or a gradual percentage debuff for every 10 points of poison or so that eventually reaches a max debuff limit?

[Lorifel]

@Yokes

For me it could be:

• -5% speed
• -5% accuracy
• -5% melee damage
• -2 perception
  for every 20 points in poison status, where 200 is max for debuffs. More poison would not limit these stats more. Penalties would be at 50% max, and 20 perception max.

I was going to suggest almost exactly that some time ago, but was too lazy to start a topic =)
Needless to say I would like that change to poison very much!

[Lorifel]

Damage over Time is not a very strong mechanic in a game like Phoenix Point. It helps to have either high alpha-damage (New Jericho style) or disables (virus, mind control, paralysis, removing limbs, daze).
DoTs like acid and poison don’t help in this aspect. Acid at least has some utility by removing armor. Fire can remove limbs in some situations. Poison just sucks)) Maybe poison would be OK if you play a team of invisible Synedrion ninjas peppering enemies with poison arrows from the shadows, but as a mutation for Anu soldier it is, well… not very helpful.

So I think giving some disables to poison effect would be logical. There are all sorts of poison types, and many of them seriously cripple their victim. Besides, it worked for XCOM series

[Rainer]

@Lorifel

Maybe poison would be OK if you play a team of invisible Synedrion ninjas peppering enemies with poison arrows from the shadows, but as a mutation for Anu soldier it is, well… not very helpful.

I gave the Synedrion Stealth Squad a go in one campaign. It’s pretty powerful… but sneak attack just makes direct-damage even more powerful so… I have to assume Snapshot didn’t want you to actually use the poison equipment in the game and that it was meant to be AI gear (the grenade and crossbows) or something. That or they didn’t understand what they were doing when they designed the gear/classes. You decide which is more believable. It works well on you, waste of resources and time for you though.

[Lorifel]

@Rainer

but sneak attack just makes direct-damage even more powerful so…

In the hands of pre-level 7 infiltrators poison crossbow deals more damage though.
(As long as they don’t have their double damage perk).

[Rainer]

@Lorifel

In the hands of pre-level 7 infiltrators poison crossbow deals more damage though.
(As long as they don’t have their double damage perk).

Haha yeah that’s true… but it doesn’t fit in the game along with the rest of the mechanics I found really.

Hiring infiltrators were rare for the first month, so I’d only really have them available if I’d decided to cross-class. Now I could’ve just began cross-classing with infiltrators and rushed the poison crossbow research, but I didn’t understand the point of that because it would maybe last for about 1-2 weeks before being outclassed by all the level 7s with sneak attack all of a sudden thanks to training facilities who I could also just slap an echo head on rather easily. Where there was the window where poison may be viable, so too was just loading naked soldiers inside of a scarab with phoenix assault rifles… and that strategy is actually better and faster.

So all in all I quickly realized that there were many flaws in the way many of the game’s designs come together, and it renders the poison equipment effectively useless. (Along with the sonic and emp grenades).

That being said, if for whatever reason (there really shouldn’t be one if you’re building bases effectively) we decide to use a lvl1-6 infiltrator beyond the 4th week of the game, the poison crossbow is better than the regular crossbow. However in the mission where I did decide to run around doing stealth kills, I found it took about 3x longer than missions normally take. So why anyone would irrationally want to do this is beyond my comprehension.