The new skillpoint system in leviathan patch

Phoenix Point Game Feedback
101

That’s fair enough, but do you not think that by adding additional perks as you have suggested with ‘dash’ could lead to even more over powered units and more saving/DDA problems with players? The current skill point system allows for small amounts of spending on our 3 key attribute bars. I perceive the levels more as milestones of training. The additional 10 sp for each mission is hugely powerful and for me means that ultimately I will have super soldiers, which in turn with make me complacent and become a weaker player despite me liking the extra points.

However, I can see that your ideas has much merit if implemented with lots of very gradual increments, e.g. dash is only 25% at first. But considering the amount of work required to develop a system like that and balance it, as well as bug testing; I would assume their is a much greater priority for other work to be completed under the current circumstances of the game development needs.

102

In my opinion there should be 20 levels, with many perks+few skills to choose from and with small amount of SP given each level to distribute. :slight_smile: Level up should be granted only after mission (so no levelups in Training Centers) and then SP after each mission would be not necessary.

Skills and perks doesn’t need to have levels and there should not be something like Dash 1, Dash 2, Dash without interruption.

What more each class should be distinct per faction so Phoenix Assault should be different from Disciples Assault and Synedrion Assault (but they could share some similarities)

103

Also for @lordflin1.

You know, maybe if I saw this in action I would say, “yes, this is great!” But just as an idea - let’s have 20 levels, I don’t see the point. Which is probably my failing.

104

To have more granular progression of soldiers. Right now you have 6 level ups:

  • First let your soldier do something other than press trigger which is quite lame for a second level.
  • Second give you some other option which is nice - nothing against it.
  • Third let you multiclass and → BANG now you have 2 different classes within one soldier which already gives too much power with single level up.
  • Fourth makes your soldier versatile and most often strong enough that you can sleep well after this point.
  • Fifth often gives you some unrealistic skill which makes your soldier like some hero.
  • Sixth let you rule the battlefield like the God should do that.

Don’t you think there is something off? :slight_smile: Where are those skills and training showing up, where do you see troubles of that soldiers to gain experience and provess?

1 Like
105

Or, let’s keep the skill gap between rookie and highly trained soldier as it is, but make gear much more powerful. Gap is huge because the means of compensating the state of being a rookie are scarce. If we could have weapons and pure firepower the main source of mayhem, the need for OP combinations would be reduced to rare situations when multiple shits hit multiple fans. OP combinations would still have the use, but lack of skills wouldn’t be a problem anymore.

1 Like
106

The hope, if properly tuned, is that it would soften the power curve, so to speak…

An alternative suggestion was to keep the seven levels but extend the experience curve to cover the bulk of the game so that, again if properly tuned, most folks would be coming into level seven characters as they closed on the final mission… As I said, the current change in SP designation… assigning the bulk to battle experience… would work well with this second suggestion… This latter route would be vastly easier to implement as devs need to tune the difficulty curve anyway and this is more easily done without core changes to the game…

107

The one does nothing to fix the other… but you are right that tech in general is sadly lacking in progression… Again, this part of the game seems value added after the core design, and it is clear from everything devs were running into budget issues…

It appears they are planning on attempting a tech fix with dlc, but this does nothing to deal with the basic trees themselves…

Let’s hope they find a clever way out of this…

108

There are several issues here, that’s true. If I understand correctly your point, you target the problem of huge steps in progression. You kill a rat that gives you 10xp needed for level up and BANG, you are Super Saiyan. That’s an issue for sure, but I don’t think it will change much. Sure, it’ll be nerfed a bit, but will remain mostly unchanged.

Not a Snapshot producer so can’t tell for sure. Just gut feeling.

109

The issue is to spread leveling out over the course of the game so that you are not required to play the last half of the game with a maxed out team… An alternative suggestion was to keep the seven levels but curve experience gain so that the average player was coming into level seven soldiers near the final mission. This would mesh well with the change in the way SP is earned… and smooth a host of scaling issues in the game…

There are other serious problems that need to be addressed as well… the entire tech progression is blah at best… not good in a sci fi tac sim… but it is livable for the moment and addressable in dlc…

The fact that perks are OP is obviously an issue for now… that and the scaling issues seem the most in need of immediate fixing…

110

Placing more emphasis on gear would make research more relevant. Which probably is not what devs wanted judging by how it was implemented. But I do agree with your point. More powerful gear can de-emphasize importants of abilities and allows to trim them heavily. Which is again can be a problem - it feels like this game is suppose to be more like a turn based RPG, not a tactics games. Which is evident from luck of tactical equipment.

1 Like
111

Wouldn’t it make truly experienced soldiers even more valuable and their loss would be even more painful? It wouldn’t reduce the gap between inexperienced soldier and veteran, but change average level in general. It may be worth considering, but for now I don’t see how would it make soldiers more expendable. I mean, how their loss could be compensated or wouldn’t feel like a disaster, not necessarily making dying irrelevant.

112

Sorry, I don’t think this has actually much connection to the classes/skill roster in PP :slightly_smiling_face:

First, even the lvl 7 skills in and of themselves are not OP - it’s how they combine with other things (other skills, stats, buffs), or when they are spammed that make them OP.

Second, this implied idea of progression through skill acquisition (ie that a soldier with a level x skill becomes better once he acquires the next level skill) is inexact, because different roles call for different skills. I will not give the soldier with rally the troops, the rapid clearance skill (also, I will not give him ready for action, which according to the above makes him “versatile and most often strong enough that you can sleep well after this point”) :slightly_smiling_face:

Come on, look at the actual level 6 and 7 skills of the three first classes:

Assault: Rally the Troops and Rapid Clearance
Heavy: Inspire and Rage Burst
Sniper: Weak Spot and Mark for Death

Does each of the first make your soldier into a hero and the second one into a God?

What generates the OP holes (or godmode if you will) is a combination of stats and skills that allows for, e.g. chaining unlimited Rapid Clearance kills and harvesting WPs for the entire squad using Inspire. Rapid clearance without a meta build? Something nice (by no means indispensable) for pest (worm) control and with some luck killing a couple more crabs.

And then if you look at the level 2 and 3 skills, they are actually pretty great - dash, return fire, extreme focus, quick aim, brawler, warcry - some of them too great, actually - like warcry, which should be nerfed, IMO.

With the Leviathan system they basically need to have combat experience - without it they will not have the SPs to be more than one trick ponies.

113

They would not exist until the end of the game… it would be up to you to use that time to develop a proper cadre by rotating troops in and out of the lineup… as the spread of perks would take place over the course of the game allowing you the luxury of time to do so… as you spend longer with each level it makes sense to rotate old troops out and give new troops a chance to accumulate SP…

Troop leveling would be not be asymptotic, per say, but it would follow something of a similar curve with the difference being that you would of course eventually get there… in other words, the higher the level the longer it would take to reach the next…

For me, playing half the game with maxed characters just isn’t working… on so many levels…

Well folks, that is it for me today… got to go spend time with the Mrs… or my gaming days will be numbered… :slight_smile:

2 Likes
114

This isn’t valid argument against OPness. Just because Sneak Attack isn’t as OP (but it is OP) by itself doesn’t mean you can’t combine it with Rage Burst on the very same soldier (this hasn’t been nerfed yet, am I right?). Also, until some skills spammability is nerfed, they are OP by design. Just can’t ignore spammability exist. :slight_smile:

So I wouldn’t say Electric Reinforcement isn’t OP by itself. Not to mention Rage Burst, which is “one-shot” everything, just because :stuck_out_tongue:

As a side note. In my opinion, game should be designed like it was symmetric (even if it isn’t). Would you like an Arthron to do Rage Burst against one of your soldier? :slight_smile: How could you defend against something like that? I don’t think there’s anything in the game (apart from final mission) that can survive Heavy/Infiltrator shot.

Edit: Aww, Rage Burst nerfed to auto-weapons only? No more Hel II frenzy? :stuck_out_tongue: But I guess Zerker/Heavy with Deceptor is still an option. :slight_smile:

115

It’s not an argument, it’s an explanation (one of the many possible explanations) of the problem.

I agree, it’s a good rule of thumb, but some exceptions have to be allowed, precisely because the game is asymmetric. I mean, the player can’t field anything with the HPs of a Scylla.

116

Was thinking about all this and regardless of how level scaling is done, there are few things that could be made to improve the flow and make loss of the soldiers or whole teams as expected outcome:

  • make rookies free, the rookies is someone who is sharing a cause of PP and is willing to join it. They come without any equipment and start from level 1
  • replace training center with Local HQ, it’s a facility that can accommodate 5-10 soldiers that will be doing routine operations such patrols, convoys, engineering work. Soldier assigned to this facility will be gaining experience just as in battle but in smaller amount so it will take much more time for them to reach top levels
  • higher level soldiers can be hired too, they can have a significant cost but come equipped and prepared for battle
  • both rookies and experienced soldier are hired from a base interface, not from visiting heavens
  • each soldier has a loyalty factor that is diminished by faction diplomacy and actions taken against individuals of their faction. Meaning that an Anu soldier can’t be used for more than a single mission against Anu as his loyalty will drop and he will leave PP
  • un-aligned heavens provide PP recruits
  • make injuries take longer to heal and disallow participation in battle if health is below 80% (exception is base defense)
  • remove multi-classing, without multi-classing you will be assembling team out of specific assets placing more emphasis on soldier rotation instead of using the same people again and again. This will mesh well with longer healing. You no longer have to care which specific multiclass some one is, you need another heavy on a team? - Grab one that is healthy and available.
  • extend abilities by giving different classes similar abilities, like rage burst can be accessible to Assault as side skill but still require proper weapon to use
  • remove shared willpower pool
4 Likes
117

@BoredEngineer, I like everything you have said. Well, almost everything as the part with Local HQ feels like renamed Training Facility. I would like to play the low level missions with new recruits instead of passive XP/SP gain. :slight_smile:

118

Rally The Troops - you give another time frame for all other soldiers on the battlefield to act - that single one looks like God’s intervention.
Rapid Clearance - another timeframe after each successive kill - really? Kill one, you regain time to kill another one, next one and again time expands… and so on. Of course it is situational, and all other elements of Phoenix Point contribute to it being OP, but damn!
Inspire - all soldiers regain WP after each kill, now just create situation when your blasts take away at leat 2 enemies, and your soldiers experience God’s grace and their mana goes up
Rage Burst - take anything that has more than 150 damage and at least 5 shots - JESUS (God’s son :slight_smile: ) or take weapon which spew many strong enough bullets to take most durable enemy in one attack. Ragnarok in the finest! :slight_smile:
Weak Spot - remove any amount of armor with one precise shot - why not, sniper rifle or actually any weapon held by “Sniper the Hero” for sure can fire Bunker Busters to do that. :slight_smile:
Mark for Death - divine grace of Sniper who is pointing finger at enemy makes enemy susceptible to any kind of attack. I could guess that enemy could kill himself just by kicking in the brick. :slight_smile:

2 Likes
119

You totally can and should do that. It’s a matter of scaling of how much experience they get from Local HQ operations. The main point is that having more of these facilities only allows to train more soldiers in parallel, not to train them faster. On top of that if you do this in a bit more advanced way, you can have diminishing returns on the amount of Local HQs for a simple reason that having more of these doesn’t mean that there are more operations that they can do. On top of that you still need food to feed all those people.

Picking up freshies should become natural if everyone needs more time to heal. Basically you will adopt the practice of switching people in your “alpha team” long before you are going to even lose someone.

Save scamming and etc, won’t make you learn a different pattern in this case. Like if you don’t lose your top guy but he is heavily injured and will be healing for a week or two, so you are not loosing his great skills and experience but neither you are rewarded for not losing anyone. Nor you get a binary penalty where difference between 95% of HP loss is miles away from losing someone. With slower healing, 95% of HP loss can take about half a time to recover compared to training rookie into a top tier (assuming he doesn’t get injured too badly). In this way, if someone is willing to save scam to a point of braking balance he would have to save scam to avoid any injuries, which is hard. And he still would have to rotate soldiers because of the fatigue.

120

It can be designed to be symmetric when facing human opposition from different factions.