What if your team does not have Rally?
What if you are not using shotguns?
This is the big problem with this game. If you play certain ways, as some of your guys do, then nothing can stop you, so the entire game is buffed to compensate, or every soldier is nerfed in some way. But if you play this game as a regular tactical war game, and not some super hero min-max paradise, then you are completely screwed. When I play, it takes the entire squad to take out one Siren and it rarely happens in one turn, so someone is always mind controlled. You need to start listening. Just because you, and a few others who are very hardcore, like to find and use broken game combos should not mean the rest of us suffer unwinnable difficulty spikes. Especially if we paid over a hundred pounds to get this damn game made in the first place! But unfortunately, this is exactly what is happening!
I suggest that you go away and read almost any other post that I have written on these forums.
I refuse to use broken skill combos. I don’t use Sniper RB, I don’t use 100% Infiltrators, I delibeerately self-limit my Squaddies to one single use of each skill they have per turn - because, like you, I so badly want this to be a tight, tactical game, where my Squad has to work together to survive.
My one concession to the difficulty of this game is (unlike Voland, who is better at this than me), I allow my Squad to use multiple Rallies, because otherwise it’s too damn difficult.
My answer is simple - it should. After my first experience of a Lair, I never touched one again until I had a Lvl 5-7 Squad that could cope with it. I invested in the most powerful Sniper Rifles I could right from the word go - and once I’d discovered Iconoclasts, I reverse-engineered them and issued them to every close-quarters specialist I have.
If you’re not doing that, then it’s not the game’s fault that you’re getting crucified - it’s yours. The game gives you the tools very early on to take out a Siren’s head in 1 turn from about Lvl.3 onwards. If you can’t do that with 2 or 3 Squaddies at max, then you’re doing something wrong.
But it doesn’t need to be Shotguns/Snipers - it could be Infiltrators, it could be RB’ing Heavies, it could be any number of things, because one of the beauties of this game is that there isn’t just one ‘right’ way to play it. You just have to find the way that’s right for you
TBH, it depends on what you mean by ‘take out’. You don’t need to kill the bitch - you just need to take out her head. Once that’s done, as long as you stay more than 2 APs away from her, she can’t do you any harm and will usually run away and cry.
This is typical of the elitist attitude of many gamers (not meaning to single you out specifically here, but others on this very post have the same attitude). It would seem that listening and understanding is in short supply, which is very unfortunate. The game is a possibility space created by the interacting rule sets and it generates many experiences. That the hardcore gamers on here cannot see that /their way to play/, which results in a good experience for them, is only one approach to the game, is a kind of blinkered view point and possibly selfish as well. “It’s alright for me, chum, so I don’t care about anyone else, in point of fact I’ll argue it down -as though it doesn’t exist-”. Guess what, it does exist, and not just for me, but for many players. If this was a game on Steam you’d find it would have a negative review rating in its current state. The community we have on here is also proving to be toxic because it cannot tolerate other view points that arise from other play experiences or approaches to the game. If the game was good then there would be multiple ways of approaching its problem space, multiple solutions. This is to be expected from a tactical war game. Listen.
Lol, are kidding? Where are these “hardcore gamers” who say that the game is alright for them in its current state? Of course it would be bomb reviewed if it was on Steam. It needs a lot of fixing, the main problems being precisely balancing and uneven difficulty, which are just the two sides of the same coin. IMO, you can’t fix difficulty while you have OP combos (which are not only skills related).
However, if it takes a whole turn or more for you to take care of a siren with your whole squad you are doing something seriously wrong, and I stand by it.
It’s not that you are ignoring some intricate, obscure maneuver for dealing with sirens that only power gamers (power games like MichaelIgnotus, who is still on his first game, lol) are aware of: I literally can’t imagine what you are doing to need a whole squad to deal with a single siren in more than one turn. Can you please describe what you are doing and why (following your own tactical reasoning)?
There are situations where the sirens, yes plural, can only be targeted by one or two units. While other enemies are a threat as well. Depending on the range and cover, a head shot may not be possible. Many times only the arm of a siren is in LoS. Since I tend to spread my squad to avoid grenade launchers, not everyone can fire on a siren. Sometimes only an arm is showing and only 1 or 2 units have a shot at that arm. Even then, my best sniper isn’t going to remove the armor and disable the head in one turn if it’s a viable target.
In any case, if you have multiple enemies, you do what you do in any other TTB game - prioritize targets and maneveur, try to minimize damages and losses.
There are situations against 1 Siren when there are no chances for even 1 unit to take a head shot, let alone enough units to take out the head in one turn. But, as been said, that’s the player’s fault. Sorry but that isn’t always the way the game plays out.
Try telling some of these people that and they just don’t seem capable of understanding. I strongly suspect they have squads of ‘supermen’ (min/maxed out with all the best mathematically possible combinations) and so just never experience the same game the rest of us are playing.
I don’t have any supermen in my squads, I don’t have time (much less desire) to mathematically optimize them, I have been playing on average less than 1 hour a day since release, I don’t save scum, I only use each skill once per turn per soldier, and skills that affect the whole squad only once per turn, and I’m currently playing on hero.
Try applying your own words to yourself:
If you tell me how you are trying to take down sirens, I can give you some hints.
If all this siren trouble is just an example to illustrate some point, great also, though I don’t know why to say that you find the game too difficult, you need to say the players who don’t must be jerks, devoid of sympathy and understanding.
Just one more suggestion: if you are finding something about the game too difficult due to balance issues, start a specific topic and describe the setup, what you are doing and why, what you expect to happen and what actually happens. That can actually help the developers, and you might get pertinent help from other players.
That comment is a bit offensive in tone. I have done so and continue to do so. But it appears that you only see my comments in response to your holy grail.
We only have 1 Holy Grail: balancing the game so that everyone can enjoy it.
I want this game to succeed. I don’t want it to get trolled on Steam. I want it to grow to the point where it can afford to add proper Panda Evolution and a ‘Path of the Peacemakers’ on DLC, among other things.
@kingius, I’m sorry - and this is not intended to troll you - but you are doing exactly what you are accusing others on this thread of doing here.
Neither myself nor Volund has ever once said:
We both very strongly argue that it does exist - and that the hideous lack of balance and overpowered nature of both Squad Skills and Panda numbers & strength is the main and overriding problem in this game! It’s what we are desperately trying to get fixed.
You are having problems in Lairs because Lairs throw multiple Sirens at you in tight blind mazes, backed up by mortar Chirons lobbing acid from unseen positions on the other side of the map. THAT IS INSANE, STUPID AND SHOULDN’T BE ALLOWED!!! But making your Squad stupidly OP isn’t going to fix that - rebalancing the number and power of Sirens and Chirons is going to fix that. But if you do that, your OP Squad will walk all over them, so you have to rebalance OP Skills at the same time.
I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve repeated this point on god knows how many threads. And I’ve lost track of the number of times I get accused of being an arrogant, hardcore power-gamer who doesn’t understand the plight of the poor ordinary player because of it.
I’m not a power-gamer - far from it. In fact, I got laughed at by one poster (who shall remain nameless) for refusing to play this game as it is - OP exploits and all - and limiting myself to playing it how I want it to be, with limits on the stupid stuff that Squaddies can do. But guess what? Playing it that way, I don’t get plagued by a massively ramped-up DDA.
However, I come back to the point that Volund was trying to make. Even if you play this game within certain self-imposed limits, it is relatively easy for a Lvl 4+ Squad to neutralise a single Siren with just 2 or 3 squaddies so that she doesn’t Mind Control and decimate your Squad. In a Lair, Sirens are imho the single most dangerous enemy you encounter - even more dangerous than hidden mortar Chirons - so I prioritise flushing them out and neutralising them at the start of the mission. If you are struggling to neutralise her with an entire 6 or 8-man squad, then I am sorry, but you are doing something wrong and all we are trying to do is find out what that is and give you some tips on how to deal with her.
And I perfectly understand that there is more than 1 way to play this game - it’s why I think it has so much potential. In my current playthrough, I have experimented with Synedrion Snipers, Jet-Jumping Heavies, 75% Stealth Infiltrators (I refuse to give them more than 75% Stealth), Adrenalin-hyped Berserkers, Vehicle-transported Techs and Mind Controlling Priests, to name some of my favourite characters. I’ve morphed my A-Team into a different configuration at least 3 times during this campaign, and am currently experimenting with a full Infiltrator Ghost Recon B-Team, along with a Vehicle-supported C-Team of the Rookies I bring up through my Training Centres. So I really do get the whole ‘possibility space’ thing.
Like I say, I don’t mean to be rude, but I really don’t think you get where we’re coming from. We’re only trying to help - you in the short-term and in the long-term hopefully everyone.
It’s very arrogant to say that if one player has a problem doing something you think is simple, then they are doing something wrong. I’m sorry, but at times I feel as if the loudest voices in the choir aren’t playing the game, but just beating their chests to be heard.
I hazard to guess you haven’t encountered a base defense where a siren has mind controlled 2 units behind a thick wall and no unit has a way to shoot at the siren. Or been in a situation in a lair when only 1 unit (if lucky) has a Los on the siren. Then, the only thing visible is an arm. Even then, heaven forbid, the only option is to try a sniper/heavy RB on that one arm. Yeah, I did something wrong, because you can do it.
It’s not arrogant, it’s just true. If you can’t neutralise a Siren - ie. render her effectively useless and unable to Mind Control your squad - with 6+ Lvl 4 soldiers, then I’m sorry, but you are doing something wrong.
Maybe you’re not concentrating on targeting her head.
Maybe you’re taking pot-shots at her from long range with auto-rifles.
Maybe you’re not concentrating enough fire on her (though how that can be with 6+ squaddies I don’t know).
2 Snipers with an upgraded Synedrion or NJ Sniper Rifle can take out a Siren’s head with 1 shot each. Alternatively, you Quick Aim and do it with just one. A Shotgun or HMG at close range will do the job just as well - you just have to figure out how to get the shooter close enough, and then back to safety afterward. Hell, even 3 Assaults each armed with a PP Assault Rifle can do it. And one of my personal favourites in the early game, when you’re not yet powerful enough to do the whole Dash+Rally thing - slap a Techie with a Shotgun in an Armadillo, drive up to the bitch, hop out the back, stick the shotgun against her head and pull the trigger. As long as you’re in the Armadillo, she can’t control you. I took out 4 out of 6 Sirens in one Lair with that trick at one point in this campaign - and when the Armadillo gets banged up, the Techie just hops out and Repairs it.
So I’m just stating an in-game fact. If your squad is Lvl4 or above, and you are having trouble preventing 1 single Siren from Mind Controlling your squad with an entire team of 6+ Squaddies, then you are doing something wrong somewhere.
But I don’t want to get sidetracked into another pointless flame war here.
The point I keep coming back to is that I’m not disparaging you or Kingius or anyone else for finding this game hard. I find this game hard! However, the way to fix it is not to boost the magical abilities of the Squaddies, but to tone down everything, so that the Squaddies don’t need magical abilities to survive in the first place.
Now there is a caveat here. It is not usually possible to do that on the first turn that you spot the bitch. So you fall back and set up an overwatch screen, keeping your squaddies far enough away that she can’t move forward and MC you on her turn.
That’s less easy as you are advancing through the maze of a Lair, which is why I tend to try to flush the first Sirens out into the open before I start to advance. That usually buys you time to get a fair way forward before you have to deal with the second wave.
But there’s another, even simpler way of avoiding Sirens in Lairs. Just don’t attack the Lair in the first place. Until it’s fixed in the next patch, just leave it to mature in to a Citadel, which is much, much easier to deal with atmo.
Got it, cheat the game. Which is what the choir is saying one shouldn’t be able to do. Okay on the one hand, but don’t do it in a citadel with a sniper/heavy RB. Take your cake and eat it too.
You’re quite right, I haven’t. But you seem to be deliberately not hearing me.
I don’t think that’s right! I think spawning multiple Sirens in places where the Squad can’t reach them is a fundamentally bad piece of game design. But I repeat: you don’t fix that with another fundamentally bad piece of game design (ie. OP Squaddies) - you fix it by preventing Sirens from spawning in places where they cannot be reached.
