I don't think 'return fire' should be that quick, return fire should be activated after attacker go back to cover

In current version 1.0.54713, return fire would be activated just after one got hit, but it may be better if one can wait a little time to let attacker move back to cover and then fire.
It’s really annoying that you fire someone from a full cover and got killed by his return fire, no human can be that quick, (Maybe alien or human with virus can be that…) This would make this game more tactical.

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If I understand correctly, the activation of retaliatory shots should occur during the animation of the retreat in cover, like activation of the overwatch mechanics immediately after the incoming shots?

I guess you can make it more tactical by shooting from low cover :wink:

If anything it would make things less tactical and just turn combat more into a full cover hide and seek snoozefest.

I’ll pass on the game heading any further into XCOM-Gears-Of-War cheers.

That’s exactly how it acts for return fire, the returning to cover animation doesn’t even stop whilst the retaliation fire ends. So it goes:

Unit attacks → Attacker begins to move back into cover → Retaliation fire triggers whilst the attacker continues to move back into cover.

Overwatch can actually trigger BEFORE the attack initiates though, quite a few times I have had a unit in overwatch, a Pandoran attacks my unit and my Overwatch triggers and disables their attacking limb before they can complete their attack rendering them harmless.

Not sure if that’s a bug or intended behaviour though and I mostly see it occur against Arthrons.

If it was unintentional it would probably crash the game. As it doesn’t it is most likely a feature.

Depends if there are exception catches in place to allow it to fall out and revert to a end of action conclusion.

So they might have catches in place for if a Arthron or other ranged units accidentally clip a explosive barrel near them that destroys their weapon mid-attack, and that’s covering the potentially bugged overwatch pre-attack triggering.

But they didn’t add the same catches for melee units as if everything was working as intended and overwatch wasn’t triggering from attack actions being started then there should never have been a situation where a melee attacks were interrupted mid-attack from secondary damage taking out limbs.

But this is all hypothetical thinking. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Unit attacks → Attacker freezes and takes damage → Attack ends, the unit goes into cover

Overwatch is triggered after a moment / meter of enemy movement. He was ready for action, but shot with a delay, and it looks legal.

For RF you need something like that, but it’s better to turn off freezing.

My current thought on return fire is that a) the soldier BEING shot should not return fire. B) Other soldiers that have return fire should retaliate, but only with the condition that they are within a certain distance of the soldier being attacked and/or the enemy that is attacking.

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+1 to that. As things stand, RF actually disincentivises you to fire at 1-shot Crabbies during your turn, in case they stay alive long enough to fire back at you.

I don’t think so. Given the amount of complaints on these fora that Cover doesn’t actually act like Cover, it’s not like retreating into Full Cover is going to stop you getting hit (especially at close range). What it might do, though, is prevent those b!$%rd 1-shot Crabbies from taking you down if you fail to kill them, because some of their return burst would hit your cover.

That’s exactly how it should be. OW is a preemptive strike against the first thing that moves within your cone.

RF is a retaliatory strike against something which has just shot at you.

I agree.

For cover to be useless from return fire makes it an absurdity; return fire is already problematic as it is.

This for me combines into an unholy storm with a third problem of the horrendously OP late-game arthrons (20-40 armour, 200+HP, up to 200 damage). If you can’t snipe them from a distance or take their arms out, they’re impossible to engage safely and when half a dozen charge your position, evacuate or die.

  • Overwatch shooting with reaction after ~ 0.5 sec. (when hitting the “cone” + pursuit of the target to the center of mass)

This is logical and it works, no complaints.

  • RF shooting with reaction after ~ ? sec. (when taking damage)

At the moment, this is an instant retaliatory attack if the target is alive and has movable arms and working weapons.

It will be logical if

  1. There is a delay of more than 0.5 sec.
  2. Possible only One activation per turn and very Low accuracy.

Something like a return shot in an arc.

But it looks strange if the actor stands like a statue.
Then, remembering that this is a Skill, you can assign it a motion tween:

  • squat and RF, when taking first damage
  • step back / sideways and RF, when taking first damage
    (reaction of the “step into the shadow” skill of Triton/ Infiltrator)

PS. There is an idea for a similar Skill - Preventive Attack

  • The first “return” shot in a limited area.

I’m really curious, why can’t you take their arms out? I have yet to run into a situation where going after the arms doesn’t succeed in removing the threat of return fire in one, maybe two attacks, but judging by your comment I’m guessing you’re not having the same experience. That is not to say your problem is invalid or anything like that, on the contrary, I’m just trying to figure out what the culprit is behind the bad time you’re having.

Don’t think of it as being strictly realistic. It’s more of an abstraction representing the superior combat skills of assault soldiers.

You qouted a post from December 2019, close after the release of PP. At this time RF was pretty hard because every enemy in range with RF reacts. So when there were 3-4 Arthrons in range you got 3-4 RF triggered when you shoot at one of them. Much more difficult to handle compared to what we currently have. Disabling an arm of one Arthron in such a sitiuation often ends in a dead soldier because it nevertheless triggered the RF of the other 2 or 3 Arthrons.

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Also, every friend - so massive squading of units with RF turned to a gang war :slight_smile: I liked it! but I am a minority!

Surely, its no longer 1.0 version, but 1.9.1

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Yes, on my side I also liked it and used it sometimes for nice traps. Let’s agree that it was unbalanced in both directions, OK? :slight_smile:

It became nuisance later on, or on harder difficulties, once you could find only close gangs of enemies grouped. Had to snipe or use explosives first. But I liked it more then individual RF. Too bad I am “minority report”

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If this benefit was only for the PP, it would never have been cut. But having a squad of Assaults is a one-time tactic, in contrast to the arriving reinforcements of mutants with guns and each has an RF skill.

The difference between the concepts of Tactics for Humans and Mutants.

While humans have the versatility and flexibility of human thinking - the simultaneous use of opposites: skills, classes, equipment, teamwork …
Mutants should only have advantages in a narrow area (Bosses are always an Exception, but they are rare units). The fast cannot have powerful weapons or extremely thick defenses. And this should be implemented in skills, mutations, parameters …
As a bad example, this is the Siren Squad (more than two) with: fat HP + deadly melee + MK.
As a good example, this is Sharp Triton with: mutations and skills for accuracy, but weak HP for 1 shot. (Triton with a pistol in invisible “- armor, - HP”, Armored Triton with a shotgun “- speed, - HP”)

This is the “Harmony / Libra” of Balance, IMHO.

Maybe it would, maybe not, nobody knows how the crowd would have comment something like that and what the devs would have do with it. They cut many things that were in favour for the player, others not. Pure speculation what ever they would have done in this case.

For me it was not a one-time-tactic, I used it often enough, but of course not only, it was and is almost always a mix of many tactics that I use. The real advantage of the player is that he almost should have more brain than any (current) gaming AI. To compensate that the AI can only go for more quantity because the quality is not enough. For PP this leads to potential endless reinforcements and in the past of course many RF ‘problems’ (that I personally never had).
My opinion at least.

To the rest:
Whatever that means for you in relation to RF, the current or the old form, I can basically agree with what you wrote.