I think you just ignored me when I told you that it is not only posible to finish the game completing all missions, without unlocking the required tech. It happened to me twice.
So “mid-game if we are unlucky”. No. If you know what factions you need to ally to unlock the tech, sure. But it is absolutely wrong to assume every player will have this tech, and much more to assume it will have it soon. Because you can complete the game getting it.
Once the second part of your argument is disproven. I should say I agree with the first. However, and obviously, not all factions are based on weapons tech, so not all factions should have the same powerful guns. Synedirion has his power in stealth and Disciples in his abilities. so again, obviously, as long as they are similarly viable not all factions are required to be based on the same strategies (guns), in fact they should not, that is the purpose of having factions.
The problem right now, is that the disciples are far worse to the other factions. Making all S and NJ worse to even the playfield, is a terrible solution. The solution is making disciples better.
Finally, you again used the word overpowered as is an obvoius given. It is not. This is the point of the discussion. You should just assume what you are trying to argue for. And I disagree, as I said before the player needs that kind of firepower, to have a fair chance and a not terrible frustrating experience.
If you want more difficulty, ok. Fair, argue then for a rise the difficulty in the higher difficulty settings.
As stands, the trying to just nerf all the powerful tools the player has in all difficulty settings would make the the game worse and more frustrating.
Either Im special and I played the game wrong twice, and that only happens to me, and most every other player obtains the Destiny III early; Or you are seeing the game trough the eyes of a veteran that knows how to play it to obtain the best output.
Which one do you think is the most likely option?
So far all have heard in this direction is “is easy to me” after playing hundreds of thousand of hours, so it should be easy for everyone even if they never played before.
And still does not take you from I want the hardest difficulty setting to be harder, to I want the game to be harder in all difficulties. In a context of very few players finishing the game, and many people reporting frustration on the excesive difficulty of their first game.
Question is if the game should be designed to take into account all possible player mistakes and strange paths he can go… or it should be designed to not allow strange overpowered stuff being accessed with optimal play. In my opinion it should be the latter case. It should not allow experienced player to gain too big advantage when knowing the meta. Balancing all for early and trial playthroughs is really hard to do.
Despite argument if they can be obtained easily they are still really powerful compared to other weapons. They just throw a lot of other weapons into bin.
And in the case that player even obtains them really late, which may be unfortunate for him, then he can still obtain ancient weapons earlier to have good enough weapons to deal with enemy. I still don’t see the reason to keep advanced laser weapons so powerful.
Again you are implying that not having the Destiny III early is a mistake and a strange path decission. I say it is not. I think is a reasonable path choice and a perfectly common occurence to not have Destiny III early, unless you actually have meta knowledge of the game and know you can get it very early if you hunt for it in advance. This only affects veteran players. This is my position.
Is maybe my position biased because of my gameplay experience? Sure. So it is yours. And unless we have data on how new players usually perform, you cannot just assume it is a fringe occurence.
To be perfectly clear about my position, I do recognice the difference in power of NJ and maybe to a lesser degree of S with respect with Disciples, I recognize this is a problem. As all factions should be equally viable.
Im also not opposing to reduce the ammo count of Destiny III, or placing it latter in the tech tree.
I dispute that Destiny III should have less output damage. My proposal is to make Disciples more useful to equalize the power of all factions. And I also recognize the need to make the hardest difficulty options harder for veteran players. And I also think more difficulty options and settings are needed, to aliviate the problems many people has both at the starting difficulty levels and and the final ones.
This aproach is far more sensible to just lowering how useful the powerful weapons are across all dificulty settings. And so far I have not heard any single argument to show this is indeed not a much better alternative.
Just rising difficulty across all dificulty levels is quite obviously to me, not a good thing for the game. Are we agreeing on this? If not why not?
This is actually plain wrong to me. Destiny III currently only competes with the mounted rocket launchers. It does not replace other in game weapons. I Would say destiny III is not OP compared to the mounted rocket launcher. Is far more useful, because the much higher ammo count. But not because excesive damage. I would say mounted rocked launchers are actually better than Destiny III in many situations.
Also I think other laser weapons are not even arguably OP, and I have yet to seen anyone arguing for another laser weapons to be actually OP here.
My opinion to the advanced laser weapons (not the normal Synedrion ones):
The Scorcher AT is somewhat on par with the Rattlesnake, the final NJ piercing turret. The Scorcher is better against unarmored targets with 8x60 damage, the Rattlesnka slightly better against armored targets with 8x40 damage + 30 piercing (net +8x10 damage against 30+ armor, but slightly lower accuracy). The Scorcher was already nerfed from 10 to 8 burst in one of the last patches and it doesn’t look that anyone is upset about this nerf (more the opposite, some “veterans” say it is still too strong ).
The Gorgon Eye A is all in all better than any PDW and beats even almost any assault rifle with its 4x40 damage for 1 AP. No matter what, for me there is no choice to use any of the other PDWs. The final NJ one, the Enforcer PDW has 20 damage with 20 piercing with lower accuracy and ammo.
The Destiny III stands on its own and for me it is hard to compare it with the rocket launchers (that are also strong for sure but very different).
But 3x80 for 1 AP with pinpoint accuracy … I don’t know. RL have at least some scatter and it is remarkable when used by non proficient soldiers, the Destiny don’t have that, proficiency is not needed, it changes nothing. For not be proficient you get a penalty of -50% accuracy, but -50% from infinity is still infinity. And yes, it is set to infinity range, better said 0° spread (this is how the game calculates accuracy for direct firing weapons, with spread degrees and not ranges). The second direct line weapon with 0° spread is the Achangel RL, it is just not that prominent, though not that strong as the Destiny but IMO still a problem because it completely disables weapon proficiency penalties.
Here would be my idea for a Destiny III change:
Range set to around 80-100, then it is still more accurate than any sniper rifle but used without proficiency it should be remarkable. Concrete numbers have to be tested of course, but IMO surely away from infinity range = pinpoint accuracy (same for Archangel btw).
I would drastically reduce the damage down to 30 but with 8 burst. Thus the overall damage is still the same but pretty ineffective against armored targets like sirens heads (against 20 armor 80 damage and not 180). Again, numbers should be tested, IMO anything goes but I think it should go away from the high potential it currently has even against armored targets.
I kind of already explained why I would opose these changes. I see no valid reason to think Destiny III should not be effective against sirens or armored targets. I think the player needs weapons capable of dealing efectively with them.
Changes of range I have no objection to. Thought as destiny III requires LOS, I dont think this change really is required.
He has plenty of weapons to deal with armor, especially the heavy, one grenade before using the Destiny could still do the job but then not for 1 AP, that is the point we always talk about. It is just out of any balance in comparison with any other direct line weapon with its current values.
The argument for nerfing Destiny III against armored targets requires Destiny III making too easy to deal with armored targets across all difficulty settings. I think this is not true at all. And yes, “too easy” is an subjective statement. I just think is not the case.
There is an argument to be made of being so better compared to any other alternative that makes other alternatives obsolete. I dont think this is the case either (the LOS requeriment makes it not replace explosives). And at short distance is just not the best damage per turn gun of the game, also it does not remove armor unlike many other alternatives. So it is a situational but very good gun. As it should be IMO.
On the contrary making Destiny III less useful for armored targets, and usefull for unarmored ones… that would make Destiny III and objectively worse alternative than many other tools the game has, thus removing the need for it. It would be a poor damage per turn solution against weak targets, compared to just a sniper riffle long range, the rocket launcher. And short range compared to any shotgun.
PS: I just think lowering the ammo capacity is a better way of making it still powerful and satisfying, but so the player can not just rely on it too much.
Not knowing how it really works doesn’t mean that is not easy to use across all difficulties. Obscuring the power is not balancing it, once you know the power of the Destiny it is just better than anything else.
For sure not, there is no sniper rifle that has a potential of 240 damage for 1 AP, even the ancient Scorpion needs 3 AP to have slightly more damage against armored targets.
Rocket launchers can be devastating but are by far not that reliable than the Destiny.
I disagree, i dont think is better than anything else. It may be the best gun to deal with armored targets mid to long range if you have line of sight. And I dont think there is anything wrong about it. As I said I think the player needs a solution that powerful. Also as is not the highest damage per turn gun of the game, and as it requires LOS it does not make all other guns obsolete.
Also I dont think “Not knowing how it really works” is actually true. Is not hard at all to know what it does. That is not a problem. The question is you can as a veteran player straightforward go for it to obtain it too early. Which is only an obtion if you have meta knowledge of the game. That could be fixed just by placing it latter on the tech tree. Also reducing the ammo count with make its use more of a tactical decission, and less abusable.
The point I see is a valid way to argue is just about difficulty, that the gun would make dealing with armored targets just too easy. And is only a valid one if you argue for high difficulty settings. So just nerfing the gun is not a real solution, having Destiny III does not make the game too easy on rookie or veteran. The game is too hard on veteran even with Destiny III, specially since there is no normal difficulty option. The issue to me is that destiny III contributes to make NJ just better than the other factions. Which is a problem related to how useless Disciples are, not about how useful NJ is.
Adv. laser tech is not a single NJ tech, it is a PX tech that has NJ and Syn prerequisites.
Anu Berserker + NJ Technician (why the hell?) gives PX adv. melee weapons, the Phoenix Shock Lance, also very strong and makes all Anu melee weapons obsolete.
Anu alone give PX access to adv. acid weapons, the heavy acid gun, btw also very powerful but gated behind the somewhat later acid tech what isn’t the case with adv. laser weapons.
Anu shredding tech + NJ adv. rocket tech gives adv. shredding tech for the shredding rocket launcher and grenade, much later in the game but in comparison to the Thor RL and Destiny just a joke IMO.
Anu are the only ones with good shotguns and melee weapons, so I don’t see them underwhelming.
From this list above I can rather see that Syn provides lesser than any other faction to PX, but what it gives, the adv. laser tech, is probably the most powerful tech in the game.
Anyway, I would like to test Destiny without infinity range and usage without proficiency. Maybe then we can talk about how or if it should have to be changed any further. But this one point has to be done for sure IMO. A weapon that completely ignores the whole proficiency mechanic should not exist in the game, but again, just my opinion.
What I find very underwheelming about ANU are muttons, and the priest. I found both kind of useless.
Shotguns of Anu are good, but they are made obsolete with the Scorpion. Also they are good but not that good, let me explain. They dont offer a new toolset or are as powerful as having Turrets and mounted guns. and melee is cool, but again, you can have very strong melee without them with cyber tech anyway.
Otherwise the infltrator and the synedrion vehicle just open new gameplay styles. Anu just gives you better shotguns and better melee (arguably). NJ and Synedrion just add new ways to play the game, in addition for the best guns in the game. These are really gamechanging. Anu to me is not.
Thor RL, and Scorcher AT are very good guns, that no other faction come close too have. Which as I said, you kind of need to have to not be frustrated with the game. Sinedrion have very unique things and the infiltrator can be very powerful. And Anu is painfully obvious just a worse alternative than NJ and less interesting than S.
What ANU needs to be competitive is make the muttons more useful, and making the priest specially its MC more viable.
PS: I dont disagree on Destiny III requiring proficiency.
Scorpion is ancient tech, compare it to the ancient Shardgun and not the Anu ones.
IMO, both have its usage, the shotguns have just much more DPS than sniper rifles, but these have the accuracy to use them from far away. Close on a shotgun is just better than a sniper rifle in most cases.
If you think close range is not the way to go then yeah, Anu is the faction that will help you not much.
Only the 1AP usage but, theoretically, not the weapons …
(I know, just find one and re-engineer or use the ancient melee weapons)
I agree that Anu is somewhat underwhelming at a first glance, but their toolset is not really weak. Some mutations are pretty strong, Priest has good abilities if you know how to use them, Berserker can be very strong in combination with other classes.
But yeah, mostly close range things and when you don’t like this style in general then …
EDIT:
I agree that Mutogs are not that powerful than the NJ or Syn vehicles, they are just … sweet
I personally find Priest not useless but just worse than any other class in the game. Im never able to MC a unit when I want to, and the enfassis on alfa strike, usually means that is faster to kill any unit with any other class than to try to take advantage of the priest abilities to panic or MC them.
I mean yah, mindcrush is cool but the priest just has not enough will points to make any difference against tough enemies, or MC even a crabman unless you spend time lowering its will first. And you dont want a crabman active near you so you can MC it. And in the cases u MC an unit because you killed nearby units first (something having a priest makes actually harder), it depletes all your WP in 1-2 turns so… yea in my experience is better to have literally any other unit than a priest.
Priest are also weak, so you dont want to have them in first line. And also if you dont u cant use any of their abilities, so that is another one. If you dont have them on the first line they are useless, and if u do, they are very vulnerable.
And mutons, well they are just a waste of space. They should have mutations or something to make them usable.
Yes berserker is strong and… that is about it to me. Not enough if u compare it with the NJ or S. specially because as you said, u can have a very good melee unit without them.
Also is true, Anu guns only get obsolete with the ancient ones. But Here is the thing NJ and S more useful guns dont get obsolete ever.
True, NJ has their AR and MG, but Syn? Their AR is pretty much outclassed by NJ’s Piranha or the Shardgun and the sniper rifle is very much outclassed by the Scorpion.
Late game I don’t use any of them except the Deceptor for rage bursts if I can build all ancient weapons, only Shardguns, Scorpions, Rebukes, Crystal Crossbows, Scyther and that’s all I need. The rest is just not worth to carry their ammo … maybe looks like a joke, but is pretty much true for me.
Edit:
Another exception is the Redeemer for viral shenanigan stuff and this is an Anu weapon
Oh, and also the Harrower for best shredding, again an Anu waepon.
Destiny should be compared to Sniper Rifles. Both require line of sight and both are really accurate weapons dealing high damage. They just differ with proficiency required and need for heavy armor in case of Destiny. But Destiny outclasses all Sniper Rifles maybe with exception of Scorpion at least in raw damage (still Destiny always hits, where Scorpion can miss its desired target). And it is secondary weapon used for 1 or 0 AP. While you deal additional damage with other main weapon. You can’t do that with Sniper Rifles.
Destiny is not competing with other mounted weapons as their use cases are different.
I would say paralisis damage makes some S guns really useful even if you have ancient guns. Granted they are situational, and is not as with NJ. Even if I think that in practise S are also plainly worse than NJ as a faction. they still provide new interesting ways to play u dont have with Anus.
The problem with the Redeemer is that the viral shenanigan makes is not really worth to have IMO. Is very strong on paper, but a very weak gun in practise. Is just better to kill the enemy or even do damage over time that will overtime.
Also Harrower is a good gun for shredding, but being close range I think damage is just better for a shotgun. When u have an enemy face to face u dont want to remove its armor to kill it with another unit, you probably jut want to finish it . Also there are so many shredding alternatives that I have no reason to use it if I have a shard gun. I would say that the shot damage of the Slamstrike Shotgun is jut in a lot of cases, just a better deal than the Harrower.
About sniper riffles, well u can actually manage to fire 2 times in many cases with a SR, making it a better decission against Destiny in many many cases as you just will make more damage perturn. The thing is usually u have snipers riffles in better positions, while u want your mounted guns usually in mobile ones. So u usually will also have much better LOS with a snipper. Yes, Destiny also grants you mobility. So they are really very different in its use, so u cant just say that one is better than the other.
The most obvious competition for Destiny to me is the mounted rocked launcher. And I would not say Destiny is plain better, because they also have different situations to shine.
To the first point about Redeemer and Harrower, I use them of course against high armored and HP targets like Scyllas and not against the poor Arthrons and Tritons that almost have no chance anyway. Against these big targets the bad accuracy doesn’t play a major role, I can reliable hit a Scyllas abdomen with an unproficient operative from not that close, done it several times and this is one of the exploits to have an easy going against them. A sniper can shot 4 times = 60 virus. The same with Harrower, 2 shots from an asuualt and a lot of armor is gone (128, of course “somewhere”, but still better than any alternative) + some damage.
And close on a Harrower easily outperforms the Slamstrike because the shred is done pallet per pallet so every subsequent pallet has -8 armor to overcome, the last 2-4 pretty often 0 armor and so deals more damage than the slamstrike.
Against 30 armor:
Slamstrike = 90 damage
Shardgun = 15 x (25 - (30 - 15)) = 150 damage
Harrower = 5 + 13 + 21 + 29 + 35 + 35 + 35 + 35 = 208 damage
Let a Sniper do the Mark for Death, Shardgun and Harrower are close together with 300 vs 288 but Slamstirke only get up to 100.
You have to go really close, but that is the deal for high damage output and 0 armor after the hit.
Second point, sniper rifle, just think one step ahead, give a sniper the neural torso that also give more accuracy than the Syn body armor (+8% vs +5%) and equip the Destiny:
2 x Scorpion + 1 x Destiny = 360 + 240 = 600 potential damage in one turn compared to 360 without the Destiny.
Do you really think this is fair and balanced?
It is only obscured to most of the players because many seem to think in the first place about a standard heavy when it comes to the Destiny and not a bit “out of the box”.
And even when they tackle the proficiency problem then just dual class to heavy or be happy when the sniper has the Bombardier perk with +10% damage, so 3 x 88 = 264 (also a bit weird that this perk provides proficiency for a non rocket mounted weapon, but anyway).
Is there in the game a specific damage threshold u think shoud be imposible. claims of OP, and fairness only make sense in context. Also you are actually laying out one very speciffic endgame manouver that requires to have a complete master of the game.
what about this?
Scorcher AT 60x10 = 600 damage. Arguably much cheaper and much easier to get.
Yes situationally. But is not that of an advantage compared to the options the weapons of other factions give you. Harrower alone is very good against big enemies, so it is Destiny III, and up close most of the time Harrower is more useful. As other weapons are.
Yes some really useful very strong combinations exist for the people that have mastered the game. Again this is only a problem for veterans and in high difficulty settings. who do not like that they can make the game easy for themselves taking advantage of the knoledge they have.
The solution is not making life worse for everybody esle just plainly making Destiny have less damage.
So my second argument still can be valid for most players.
