PP Laser Weapons overpower and game changers!

Phoenix Point Laser Weapons are way overpower… for the cost in AP they do much damage making it easy to kill almost all Pandora brings.

Only costing 1 AP even the Gorgon Eye-A, the Phoenix Tech Laser PDW, is much better than VDM Defender and VDM Enforcer, the NJ Tech weapons, with more range and damage. It is better than Deimos AR-L, the Synedrion Laser Assault Rifle that costs 2 AP.

Anyway, this is small matter compared to Destiny III, the mounted Phoenix Laser array for Heavys… it never misses, is better than a sniper and can reach the other side of map if in straight line to it, with huge 240 damage for a single 1 AP.

The Turret Scorcher AT, now a little more expensive to overuse costing 2 AP for Techs, still overpower…. With 480 (8x60) damage for shot destroy almost everything. It should be reduced in firepower.

Link for vote in canny: PP Laser Weapons overpower and game changers! | Voters | Phoenix Point

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What really sets me off is how the NJ VDM Enforcer piercing PDW and the NJ Rattlesnake AT piercing turret actually requires slightly more research time to unlock than the Phoenix Gorgon Eye-A laser PDW and the Phoenix Scorcher AT laser turret do, but the piercing PDW/turret has worse stats overall than the laser PDW/turret. The piercing PDW/turret requires 6 NJ techs adding up to 3850 total research time points to unlock, vs 8 NJ/Syn/Phoenix techs adding up to 3800 total research time points for the laser PDW/turret. But the laser PDW and laser turret are still statted as all-round better higher-tier weapons compared to the piercing PDW and piercing turret instead of being sidegrades to them. The VDM Enforcer piercing PDW in particular is really in desperate need of a buff, it should be rebalanced as being the most effective PDW to use against well-armoured enemies, but the Gorgon Eye-A laser PDW just has better stats in every way compared to the other PDW’s when I think the Gorgon Eye-A laser PDW should only be the most accurate PDW out of the three types of PDWs in the game.

And then of course there is how the Destiny III is so accurate that it doesn’t even need mounted weapon proficiency to use, even when using it with a 50% non-proficiency accuracy penalty it’s still super accurate. I remember how there was once a time when the Destiny III was really awkward to aim with and hard to use properly, but Snapshot Games seems to have overcompensated in improving the Destiny III’s ease of use and accuracy. The Effective Range stat and damage potential of the Destiny III needs to be reduced to a more balanced and reasonable level.

3 Likes

Please don’t nerf my beloved gorgon, scorcher, deimos, hephaestus, etc. Some of these laser weapons are not great against heavily armored targets. Some weapons are just generally better overall. Prior to legacy of the ancients, the NJ raven stood head and shoulders above the other sniper rifles. As far as turrets go, the watcher isn’t bad at all: its cheap and it shreds. The gorgon and scorcher have been noted as being a bit special (some would say overpowered), but you are marrying tech from multiple factions so perhaps it ok for them to be a little extra.

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AFAIK nobody is calling for these to be nerfed :slightly_smiling_face:

Their DPS/accuracy/ammo are just too high, imo.

Also, though they require tech from 2 factions, they are basic tech, so in practice you can easily get them within weeks of starting the game - much sooner than the (inferior) NJ piercing tech.

What about Destiny III btw?

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Double nerf

Haven’t used one yet.

I don’t have a really deadly counter argument to this. If someone did a Long War like overhaul mod a lot things would be dramatically rebalanced including your OP. So while you have a good, I just don’t view the scorcher is that bad of an offender especially after the Behemoth rebalance. Within the current game as it is, I would just point to their considerable cost, that about half of that damage will be stopped by armor, and ask you to compare them to the ancient weapons. Their is no ancient turret or PDW and perhaps these very good weapons fill that slot.

Well, one way of looking at the the ancient weapons is that they are totally OP end of game content: by the time you have the Scyther, you have won. You could theoretically rush to have them, but if you can manage that very early on you probably don’t need such weapons in the first place.

Advanced Lasers on the contrary are too easily available, because reaching aligned status with both NJ and Synedrion can easily be done in the 2 weeks without even trying. When I don’t self-restrict to alignment with one faction, I always end up having Advanced Lasers a month before piercing weapons.

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I fully agree with VOLAND and think exactly the same.

In my first gameplay I never get to have half the weapons. As most people in their first game, I did only allied one faction. Not even iny second one I managed to ally all the factions to get all guns. Much less early.

I do no not support any change to make the game more challenging for veteran players, unless its only done on the highest difficulty setting. Nerfing more the player in any level below that is making the game worse for 99℅ of the players to improve the experience for the 1%.

Thats just my opinion.

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Ever aim at a hoplites head at hit the shield? While very accurate, hitting other than what you aimed at is a miss. Another consideration is how late it comes. I’ll argue that by the time one can use the destinyIII the game is all but won already, and so will not be a game changer very often. They do make it easier, especially against Sirens, but it’s not like the Sirens couldn’t be defeated before the destiny III, it just makes it easier especially since any chump of a heavy can wield it just fine.

It is only 1 AP, but can only be used once/turn. So 240 damage/turn vs 360/turn (30*12) for the lowly Ares, which also does shred damage. Not a clear winner here. It is also really expensive to build/replace. All the laser weapons have a high tech cost both to build and fire.

It only requires basic faction tech. You can have it by mid January without much effort.

This comparison assumes that you will use Destiny III and only Destiny III during the turn, which is absurd. Instead, most likely you will use Boom Blast to shoot the GL twice and then the Destiny III for free.

(yes, also worth mentioning that Boom Blast or Quick Aim reduces DIII cost to 0 AP, or that it can be used by any class without any impact on accuracy)

It’s an absolute game changer (or rather game ender) to have a squad equipped with this weapon.

Got any stats for that “most” ? :wink:

Personally, I have run into more people who have allied with all the factions in their first playthrough than those who didn’t, and certainly more players who got to aligned status with both Synedrion and NJ than those who did not, and aligned status is all that is required to gain access to Advanced Lasers tech.

Wasn’t your first argument that most first time players don’t get to have these weapons anyway? :slightly_smiling_face:

Anyway, I agree in principle, as in making changes with the purpose of making the game more challenging on Veteran. But there are plenty of changes that might make the game more challenging for some players but provide a better overall experience for most players.

For example, doing something to prevent repeated raiding of a haven would certainly make the game more challenging for players who rely on this type of farming, but I’m sure that most players would welcome it.

I did not say most players allied or not with any specific faction, I said most players allied with only one on their first playthrough, thus missing many of the best guns of the game and having a much more difficult time. I would even say the game is not balanced for having an alliance with all 3 factions.

My point is that a regular player, does also not know how to use the meta of the game to get the guns early. Even if a non-veteran player gets a gun early, said player will not be able to cheese or break the difficulty of the game with said weapon. Because that is also something that only is a problem to veteran players.

What I’m disputing is simply the claim of the game being too easy and laser guns OP. I think the game is actually too hard in many ways for the average player. And most guns and abilities claimed to be OP. Have been already nerfed too much, in my opinion.

Making the game harder and less accessible does not make the game better.

I’m not opposing to having an extremely difficulty game mode. I’m opposing to turning this game into an elitist experience for hardcore players only.

Also there is an argument to be made on, the question of what OP really means. Some abilities and guns are certainly better or much better than otters. In some cases this is accetable due to progression. Some may need nerfing, and this is what have been done over and over again. But, when some of these “OP” abilities and guns make the game not too easy but less frustrating. Maybe the problems lies in the opposite direction. Some guns and abilities are underpowered. Drag down all the abilities and guns to the level of the less useful ones makes the game more challenging, but in a bad way.

This I kind of agree, thought it does not affect me, I simply dont raid. However is not a black and white issue. Players that farming raids are in some way intentionally breaking the game. But also, I think this happens so much because the game as “meant to be played” is often unfair and too difficult. The game naturally pushes people to use farming, save scumming, OP meta strategies and other combinations that destroy the balance of the game. Because the alternative is having a frustrating experience because how punishing the game can be.

Both problems are linked in my opinion. And addresing the balance problems just by nerfing the player, will not work for PP.

Balance is a delicate issue. A more comprehensive aproach with more difficulty levels and difficulty options is required. And devs need to ack the fact that PP does not have a normal difficulty option, and desperately needs one. And most people will find the game too easy on rookie and unplayable in veteran for their first playtrough.

Other obvious flaw is the lacking of an Iron-Man mode, and why nobody is really asking for one, even with many people asking non stop for stuff that makes the game more difficult and in my opinion more frustrating. I think is probably because almost nobody would be willing to play it, precisely because how some game moments can be and because how difficult losing soldiers is, overall punishing too hard mistakes.

To finish, the game does not scale well difficulty above veteran. Once you got veteran, leggend is not that far off. Probably because how much beat high difficulty settings relies now on mix-max optimization and meta. and how powerful these strategies are.

Once you take all these into account you probably will reach the conclussion that most guns need to be buffed in low difficulties and some need to be nerfed in high difficulties. Which is why just asking for constant nerf does not cut it anymore for me.

Why would they do that? They would need to restrict themselves to not do the faction missions. From my understanding most players have no problem with aligning with any number of factions - even if it took a lot of time in their first playthrough. So they had access to all weapons sooner or later.

And this game is not about first playthroughs… it is about getting back to it and starting it again. If you know what you do, as @VOLAND said it is easy to get that advanced laser tech in first 3 weeks of in-game time. Which is huge change in balance.

No, because playing the game in a natural way will lead you to having good relations with one factions at the expense of having bad relations with the others. Even doing all missions you can for all the factions.

What is natural way? “I won’t do half of these missions that will pop up”?

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I mean the game is designed so that the actions (most) that increase the reputation with one faction, decrease it with the others. If you dont farm reputation and just play the game, you will end with at least one fation hating you. And certainly not having allied status with the 3. Posibly with just one in your first game.

Now once you know you can ally all factions and how to do it, is not (that) hard. But that requires having played the game before, which means investing 100+ hours in a campaign, and probably looking into it.

This is why I say that veterans have a perspective on the game which is only valid for veterans. Is also the other way around, but veterans are, looking to the stats, around 1 in 100 players.

If you do only haven defences + alien base missions you get so huge diplomacy bonuses that these decreases doesn’t matter.

Such player would need to avoid defending havens and would need to skip doing any alien base attacks. THEN (which I think is really rare case) you can have negative standing with even 2 factions. But that would be absurd to allow all these missions to be skipped.

From my understanding all players try to do as many missions as they can, thus they gain really huge bonuses to all factions standings. Which is their mistake, as it is not necessary to be successful in this game.

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Certainly not.

You get massive rep boosts with all factions from destroying colonies, while the penalties for helping a hostile faction are - 1 or - 2.

So you do a haven defense gaining between 4 and 8 with one faction, losing 1 with a different faction, then gaining between 4 and 12 for destroying a Pandoran base with all factions. And that’s the natural way to play the game if there is one.