Paralysis is difficult to understand

Phoenix Point Game Feedback
1

First up, I really like this game. There are some infuriating elements, but overall it’s great.

After 44 hours, a few restarts, and help from bug reporting I have finally managed to paralyse an enemy. The whole system is very confusing. Some feedback on why I found it confusing.

To Strike Or To Bash

For My main issue, I am somewhat ashamed to admit is the confusing language here:

strike or bash
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These word mean the same thing, one of them has a fist icon the other a weapon.

I was using bash and getting “resisted” warning for the longest time. I assumed this meant my attempts at paralysis were being resisted.

Maybe you could change Strike to a word that is not a synonym Bash. e.g. subdue or inject.

Where is Strength?

In Character Attributes phoenixpedia, strength is listed at “the general strength of a unit, determines Hit Points, encumbrance Limit…”

And on the Paralyze Damage page I’m told that “the target will lose AP based on the proportion of paralysis to the characters strength” - I think I understand.

In game however, where is an Enemy’s strength shown?

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Strength determines HP, amongst other things? so is it 470? with my 8 Paralysis damage neurolizer it seems that I am going to have to strike him many times to knock this guy out.

So after a hit I see a sign that says 8/47, so maybe the 47 here is strength? 1/10th HP? Are we supposed to just know this? or remember it?

This really could be a lot clearer.

Disabling Body Parts Reduces Strength

Phoenixpedia:

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"If the body part hit points are reduces to 0, the body part is disabled and any strength etc given by that body part are lost"

But by how much?

I’ve disabled this guys leg:

disabledleg
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-30 HP, or 3 strength? no it seems not:

argh
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It’s gone down 1 from 26. This is still confusing. I don’t understand the numbers here.

Couldn’t all of this be made much clearer? I don’t mind the interplay of strength, action points, body parts & paralysis. it’s just that the system is opaque as it currently is.

Thanks

4 Likes
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To paralyze an enemy with the Neurazer you have to use “Strike”, with “Bash” you can’t paralyze enemies.

Short description for “Strike”:
“Strike” is the mentioned attack you can perform with any melee weapon like the Neurazer. You deal the damage and status effects you can see at the weapon description.

Somewhat longer description for “Bash”:
“Bash” means, that you bashing enemies with any item you hold in your hand, even a grenade or medkit, and works best with heavy weapons because the damage is determined by the wight of the Item you use to bash and multiplied with the strength of your soldier. If your soldier has 20 strength the Neurazer with a weight of 2 will deal 2 x 20 = 40 damage, a heavy weapon weights 5 and so would deal 5 x 20 = 100 damage. Additionally the heavy class can deal 50% more damage with “Bash” if he has the level 2 skill.
“Bash” has also a chance to stun the enemy (not paralyze) that is dependent on the damage you deal with your bashing. Your enemies almost always “resist” the stun when you use “light” weapons like the Neurazer because the damage is to low.

Exactly that.
It is the same with your soldiers as their HP is 10 times the strength which you can increase with skill points.

You have to look how much the disabled bodypart will reduce the max HP. You can see that when you target a bodypart. It is mostly not equal to the HP of the bodypart itself (AFAIK MaxHP < sum of bodypartHP for all characters in the game).

A disabled leg of a Triton reduces it’s max HP by 10, so it’s strength by 1.
That’s why you get this:

I hope this helps, even when english isn’t my natural language (sorry in advance for some stupid grammatic) :wink:

1 Like
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Thanks Mad Skunky :slight_smile: Will look out for the HP of body parts when I next play.

Rather than looking for answers though, my post more just providing feedback to the developers (hopefully) on why paralysis is needlessly complex.

  • “Bash” and “Strike” mean the same thing in English (i don’t know about other translations)
  • “Strength” is never shown on an info screen, though mentioned several times elsewhere
  • Body Part strength reduction does not match the values in info.

I’m sure there are several ways of making this clearer:

I haven’t seen the descriptions MadSkunky posted above for the the difference between Bash and Strike in game- my initial understanding was based on the short description when you use the neuraliser. Surely that could be made clearer and not use synonyms for the action? especially in the case of the Neurazer.

Why not just show strength in the info on an enemy? That would be very clear. I haven’t seen the 1/10th hp/strength description in game. Even if it exists, why not show both values?

Why not show the strength a body part gives in Info? in fact why is info only showing me some info implicitly and not all relevant into explicitly?

Sorry for asking questions again when I am not really looking for answers. I’m just hoping this helps the developers make the game a little more user friendly.

Keep up the otherwise good work guys!

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I agree that strength’s relation to HPs and to disabled limbs could be made more clear.

To me, bashing suggests attacking something with a particular lack of finesse (as with hitting something with a rock until it breaks) (for Google, “strike hard and violently”) and the icon shows using a firearm as a blunt weapon, so I think that is pretty clear.

By contrast, an attack with a melee weapon is described as a “strike”, suggesting deliberation/intent/purpose (Google: “hit forcibly and deliberately with one’s hand or a weapon or other implement”), and there is an icon of a closed fist.

Also, the description of the actions correspond to that - the first referring to hitting an enemy with an item and the second referring to a melee attack.

I might be wrong, but I don’t see a problem here…

What would you suggest as a better alternative to differentiate both actions?

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This should definitely be done, it takes quite a long time for me to realize how it worked.

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Firstly, even in your google description of “bash” you used the word strike. That is the problem, it is not clear.

Both words suggest to me hitting something rather than using an item on an enemy as intended (unless that item is a hammer or something similar).

Secondly, wording aside one icon is a fist the other is the butt of a weapon. Neither of those suggest that you are using this weapon as intended. One suggests you are using the weapon as a blunt instrument, the other that you are only using your hands.

Thirdly, only the description of bash mentions the weapon.

I assume here that the Neurazer is considered to be a melee weapon in code. An it applies paralyze damage unlike other weapons, which is why we have ended up with this confusing language.

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The icon does not make it look like something you would strike or bash with to use. It looks like a piercing weapon.

Speaking strictly about only the Neurazer even “Use” would be clearer than having both bash and strike.

Though tbh even for other actual melee weapons bash and strike is still confusing

1 Like
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I was just as confused in the beginning. I had assumed bash was the method. When it didn’t work after 2 missions, I tried a Google search. It wasn’t until I saw a YouTube video where someone was trying their first attempt did I learn to use strike. Interestingly, the poster tried bash first as well. So we have at least 3 players where the method wasn’t clear.

1 Like
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Yes, you are probably right. However, then a different source of confusion would be that the Neurazer is a melee weapon and behaves like one, but has a different icon/nomenclature…

Don’t get me wrong, the obscurity surrounding paralizing enemies is real and it’s a good point. I imagine it will be covered in the eventually coming tutorials…

Maybe, but there I don’t see a better nomenclature. A bash is a melee attack, after all. I would say that strike is a set and bash is a subset, so all bashes are strikes but not all strikes are bashes.

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6 months ago there was information that they are working on new Unit Info Screen. When it will be implemented? We will see.

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Maybe ‘Melee’ and ‘Club’?

Melee implies using a weapon with finesse, and most gamers know what it means. Club does not.

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I thought melee didn’t imply any finesse, or lack thereof. Just close quarters fighting. And clubbing with a club can be a very fine attack :wink: (like in Thief).

I could be wrong though.

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There is just too much overlap - Bash/Melee/Club are all similar (a club would be considered a melee weapon). Yes the Neurazer is classed as a melee weapon - but it’s clearly not something you whack the enemy over the head with.

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There’s always going to be overlap, because essentially both are describing close-quarters hand-to-hand combat.

The trick is finding one that instantly conjures up images of fighting with finesse as opposed to one that instantly conjures up images of simply hitting someone with a heavy object.

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maybe it shouldn’t be classed as that - at least in terms of what it presents to the user.

Maybe something more akin to whatever the healing gun is. does that just say “heal” when you use it? can’t this just say “paralyse”?

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No, because the action of using the Neurazer is precisely the same as the action of using a sword or Marduk’s Fist. You are simply using the ‘Strike with a Weapon’ action to stab the victim with your Neurazer, as opposed to using the ‘Bash with a blunt instrument’ action to hit them over the head with it.

So the terminology needs to clearly explain to the user that X means ‘use this for the function it is designed for’ and Y means ‘use this as a club’ - hence my suggestion of ‘Melee’ or ‘Club’.

It’s my understanding, Voland, that melee is the generic military term for hand-to-hand combat using weapons, but that maybe just the old wargamer in me.

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I play with German language and here “Bash” is even more somewhat stupidly named as “Hämmern”, so we hammer nails into walls …
Translations are sometimes really funny :grin:

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For me Bash icon could change to portrait hitting with a butt of a weapon (even if you hold something else than a weapon).

Strike should have an icon portraying something like thrust or slash of sword against an opponent.

I think that would solve confusion. If not - description could change:

Bash - “Use blunt part of the item to deal concussion damage in melee range.”
Strike - “Use standard attack of a melee weapon with all its properties.”

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“Buttstroke” is the military term for whacking someone over the head with the butt of a rifle.

It would, of course, also add endless hilarity if they used that nomenclature, but you could then use “Melee” as the alternative to “Strike”, with that option only being available when a legitimate melee weapon was equipped.

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That sounds like a possible solution. Since we are all “gamers”, the term melee should mean something to us. However, the definition of melee is all over the map.

Melee (game terminology) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The term melee has been adopted and popularized in wargaming, table top, and video games to encompass all forms of close combat. This can include any combat that involves directly striking an opponent at ranges generally less than a metre, especially using martial arts or melee weapons. This term is especially used in comparison to other strategies, such as ranged combat or magic (where applicable) when the game offers multiple methods of combat.

Then there is the “normal” non-gamer definition:

Definition of melee

: a confused struggle especially : a hand-to-hand fight among several people They were seriously injured in the melee.

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Absolutely, there’s no really good accurate phrase to use I suspect, perhaps “Stick them with the pointy end”? Bit long for a button name though…