Let's fix... weapons balance!

OK, first of all, if anyone can think of a better topic title, all suggestions welcome.

Here is a thing that has been bugging me to no end in PP - why do all direct fire weapons have their accuracy improved at shorter ranges up to and including when the target is adjacent to the shooter? It’s obviously unrealistic and there is nothing in the game mechanics that mandates this.

Quite the opposite, it would seem that if different weapon types had different limitations each would become more useful for different situations. This would address the current sniper supremacy and the melee lameness.

So this is what I submit for comments & consideration:

  • Targets adjacent to the shooter:
  1. Sniper rifles and heavy weapons are too unwieldy for that, so they can’t be shot at all.
  2. AR and shotguns can be shot with an accuracy penalty.
  3. SMG and handguns shoot without penalty.
  4. Melee weapons, after hitting, lock the target in place, so if target moves away it receives another blow.
  • Target not adjacent but very close to the shooter (within, say, 4 tiles?)
  1. SR and HW shoot with a big accuracy penalty.
  2. AR, shotguns, SMG, handguns shoot without accuracy penalty.
  • Target close to the shooter (4-10?) tiles
  1. SR shoots with an accuracy penalty.
  2. All other weapons shoot without penalty

I have excluded some weapon types (crossbow, virus, acid, etc.) to avoid complicating things, but you get the idea.

I think this has the potential to solve many issues, in addition to establishing some clearer roles for each soldier class.

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You can’t create accuracy penalty in this game based on distance to target. That would be ridiculous. :slight_smile: This is not a FiraXCOM.

3 Likes

Sorry for my english, but i hope you can understand what i have to tell.
Not sure if its fixed by now, cause i played 2-3 week ago, but first of all about weapons:

Repair endgame weapons!!

  • Biggest ricket launcher is total crap with no splash dmg (i guess it actually have super micro splash, cause it sometimes did over 100 dmg, but mostly it was 70… worse than starting weapons). Description say it will be great weapon to take out biggest aliens, but its just heavy gunner’s sniper rifle with 1/2 dmg of other sniper weapons with no option to burst entire clip. Took this to 2-3 missions, and changed back to starting “Hel II Cannon”

  • Flamer… poor range and dmg over time instead of instakill provided by real heavy weapons like “Hel II Cannon”. Also bugged aiming and fire covering area in strange way. Took it for 2 missions and throw away.

  • Virophage sniper rifle. End game sniper bugged and much weaker than New Jerycho SR with bugged overwatch range (or was it intentional?)

  • Virus weapons… i though it could be usefull, but usually its much better to shot enemy head off with normal weapon or burst 2-3 weak enemies to lower morale of other and mind control them. Mighty priests was walking with this, but almost never use them

  • Melee weapons… best of all is… hvy gunner melle atack with any heavy weapon. It cost only 1 AP hits very hard. Every lair i destroyed was with 3 or 4 melee hits in 1 round.
    Berserk, class dedicated for melee combat. When i recruited one, he start with hummer. Then i research “phoenix point melee weapon” witch is just worse than starting hummer. After this i put my handl on “advanced melee weapons”… every of them worse than starting hummer. wtf? Starting hummer was best melee weapon. My berserk took it to final mission, cause every other is just worse.

  • Mounted Missile Launchers - this are strong, for 1 AP you can do more than any other weapon (cripple few enemies on quite large area), i expected Heavy rocket launcher to work similar to them

  • Mounted laser - bugged. First time i used this, it was aimed like rockets, but with tiny target circle, and few other times it has large aiming circle, just like rockets, so i couldnt even hit enemy… and if i did it was just 60 dmg… like pistol… rockets are 10x better. Why cant aim with this laser, like every normal weapon? I thought the point of this weapon is to “snipe” with it, so it should be aimed like all other weapons, not like granades/rockets

I was rly disapointed with weapons and technology in Phoenix point, cause there are not many weapons, and most of them are bugged or pointless. In last mission i used:

  • Hel II Cannon (starting gun - still best heavy weapon in game)
  • NJ Gauss Sniper Rifle (this is tier 1 weapon unlocked in early game)
  • Turrets (laser)
  • Gauss Assault Riffle (tier 1 - early game weapon)
  • Hummer (starting melee weapon - still best in game)
  • Mounted Missile Launcher’s (this was rly great, even OP comparing to other weapons)

Why NJ Gauss is especially good? It’s PP sniper rifle with a bit better DMG and worse range.

Now NJ piercing SR on the other hand…

I mostly agree with you on all your points, except this part:

You need to tell us at what stage in campaign you are. If you still explore first or second continent then those weapons are fine. If you use them in the endgame missions then you do something wrong.

  • Hel Cannon is good and I understand your choice here, but I prefer combination of Deceptor+Goliath+something mounted. But ok, yes Hel is still great later on.
  • Over Cyclops I prefer Pythagoras from basic faction weapons - maybe it has 10 damage less, but has better accuracy and 50% more ammo in one magazine. But over them two I would prefer Raven.
  • laser turret is really good
  • over Bulldog there is also NJ second tier weapon - Piranha, but again instead of Piranha I would use Iconoclast or Harrower shotguns.
  • Humvee would be awesome! :smiley:
  • over Fury-2 there is better Ragnarok or Thor.

Sorry, my bad. When i said “last mission” i mean “final mission”. I have finished game with this setup, but you’re right. I was not using Bulldog and Cyclopus, but Piranha and Raven (i play language version, so i didnt used weapon names). And last tier of mounted weapons ofc. I finished game with about 100% rep in all factions and all research completed.

But imho Hel Cannon is one of best weapons in game, for sure is much better than few other end game weapons. Same with hammer (lol, hummer :wink: it was rly late here when i wrote this :stuck_out_tongue: ).

I wonder if what I’m suggesting has already been discussed during the BBs, and what were the reasons for rejecting it. (Besides that FiraXCOM penalizes accuracy of SR short range. :wink:)

Why not? - You can just shrink the target reticle.

And if the target reticle is 50% over close target and 50% over distant target what size should it become?

Just base it around whichever target is in the centre.

And what if in the center is a very small space between arm and torso of your target? Will the reticle become small because it is centered on a far away object behind the target?

I will go ahead and say yes, that if it is possible to target something (distant target) through a close target, then the reticle should behave as if targetting a distant target (no penalty)

EDIT: but it has to target the distant target without touching any part of the close target. Which means that the close target can’t be hit by the attack.

I get a sense like you’ve never fired a weapon in your life, and I don’t mean that as an insult. No “direct fire” weapon on earth is going to have crap aim at a close target but magical better aim on one farther out. That’s just not how they work. Add to that the SR and HW in your suggestion have an accuracy graph that looks like an hourglass.

Point 1 would be alright as far as adjacent tiles go for the reason given. Gives more weight to CQC weapons.
Point 2 regarding AR’s for the same reason. A shotgun however is debatably the ultimate CQC weapon. Want to guarantee a kill at range 0 there’s likely no better weapon to put in your mouth.
Point 4 That’s just “Attack of opportunity” and isn’t a bad idea. Been in tile based combat for decades.

Beyond immediate adjacency there’s no justification for any sort of mucking with accuracy or weapon use.

No offense taken. Actually, I have been to a couple of shooting ranges in my life and shot with an AR (the civ semi-automatic versión, of course).

I’m thinking of the penalty to accuracy as reflecting the difficulty of aiming a long arm at very close range, not the accuracy of the weapon itself. Considering the length and size of SR and HW I imagine that at too close a range aiming them has to be difficult because they are unwieldy. I don’t know at what range that should cease to be a problem, but perhaps it’s not unreasonable to assume that it actually might happen from one tile to another.

That’s assuming that you are not so close as to be within reach of a crab’s pincers, I assume, because then it’s hard to maneuver the weapon to aim it at the target.

Gameplay wise I think there might be.

2 Likes

I am not sure what to say about this suggestion.
On one hand the sniper rifle optics was definitely not designed to aim for enemy’s eye at point-blank and it is not the best option for close-quater gunplay.
On the other hand I am afraid this is going to overcomplicate the existing game mechanics.
:roll_eyes:

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It’s not just the weapon that has aim, but also the wielder. To give a personal example; I’ve shot clays and that type of shooting certainly has an effective range for me, too close and the target is moving quicker than I can react.

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Yes, that’s pretty much it. I think that it might be worth some complication, but I admit that it also might not be.

On the gripping hand, the game already has mechanics that change the size of the targeting reticle, such as quick aim and the bonus to snipers when there are no enemies within 10 tiles. Would it be so difficult or complicate things that much if the targeting reticle grew very large when centered on close targets?

You could maybe even make use of a mechanic such as that - give a penalty to snipers when there is an enemy with 10 tiles.

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This way they would get penalty on pistols as well.
And being multi-class they would get penalty on every other weapon type.
I don’t think that taking a sniper profession should make you a worse shoot at closer range :crazy_face:

No, you would expect it should make you better at long range, just as someone who always uses any other gun type should become better with that.