Berserkers and melee need fixing

So long as you use Adrenaline Rush as the last willpower action it’s effect still triggers and it doesn’t cancel Rapid Clearance. In my play through I didn’t use a priest (except to counter the final boss) and I didn’t intentionally get my Beserker injured. She had both Close combat specialist and Reckless, (I specifically selected an assault with these abilities to cross class), and was able to one shot end game Tritons and 2 Shot Arthrons and Sirens. My usual tactic was to have 2 assaults with Rapid Aim damage as many enemies as possible then rush her in and mop up.

There’s certainly a hole here with Rapid Clearance and Adrenalin Rush, and it’s just a no ammo option with hammer, you can as well mix it with an heavy chain gun and strong man. Not sure you would need much preparation from team.

@Groener oh yes, berserkers are far from useless, there is just no sense in using them for melee, that’s what I am complaining about.

Like why use a hammer with the adrenaline rush when you can use a shotgun?

I also complain about how their most useful builds are very meta because of armor shred (it really doesn’t make sense that it should work with anything other than melee weapons) and blood rush (because lack of wound treatment somehow leads to increased damage, also with ranged weapons :crazy_face:)

The case quoted by Groener even if smelling a bit like an exploit, is justifying fully melee use because of no ammo used. The heavy chain gun I quoted for a similar use when having a special skill is a lot more powerful but won’t last long because of ammo.

You implicitly quoted another case, Armor shred with armor certainly apply on all parts as grenade. A shotgun spread but will hardly apply the shredding on all parts.

A minor case is weapon bash with skills increasing damages they damage weapons but not a close range as the hammer.

A game tip quote another case it’s when one arm is disabled, but it’s very borderline for close range and more for pistol.

Specialize Berzerk skills to close range would be very limitative.

I would suggest to make the distance not fixed, but equal to the distance the soldier can cover with 1 AP use. And add damage bonus % equal to the distance covered after the ability activation. That would result in more distance for charge = more damage, potentially translating soldier Speed stat -> damage (especially with Frenzied status, which also should make sense) :smile:

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I think this is good idea.

With this and imposing some distance limitations on weapons (so that some weapons - SR and HW - can’t be used on adjacent targets, AR and SG get accuracy penalty) and melee hits making the target stick in place (and receive a hit if they attempt to move away) (I started this thread Let's fix... weapons balance! on fixing balance between different weapon types to discuss this), melee and non-meta berserks would become relevant in the gameplay.

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I really wouldn’t like to see a melee unit ‘appear’ next to an enemy, you’re basically just performing melee from distance then which turns it into a ranged weapon. I think the fix for melee needs to come from melee itself.

The first thing I’d suggest is that there should be a bigger range of melee weapons available to use.

Or give berserkers something to eat or drink during missions that will really turn them into a berserker.

Why bother make melee strong, in my opinion it would be better to have a larger perspective, with some personal skills adapted, or without multi class, it’s the only class not really efficient, that’s the complain.

Ok but to fix it should better focus on berzerk aspect.

Some random suggestions:

  • Rage when enemy in x range, increased damages per enemy in range. Active state last one turn not cheap will cost.
  • Panic is generating Rage at next turn and for one turn.
  • Catalepsy, fall like dead for 2 turns.
  • Throw close range weapon, increased damages.
  • Class itself gives bonus to bash.
  • Bash with close range weapon adds extra damages.

I’m quite doubfully on nerfing all classes for a one class problem. But perhaps more diversity on close range weapons can help.

Imho every melee weapon should be strong (for late game) and they should have side effect hit not just plain shredding armor. Gives some side effect such as panic, dazed, paralyze, cancel overwatch cone, cancel mind control, reduce enemy WP or doubled accu penalty. Current class for cqc are forcing player to use SMG and shotgun *I still didn’t find in current base game that using melee are great use in tactic, melee oriented need love! For sake of balance Imo this class can only have a single class but no restriction to use any faction melee weapons.

Edit : Just make sure don’t make this class into RAMBO :scream:

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But is doesn’t turn melee into a ranged weapon. As suggest by @Lorifel what it would do is reduce the cost of moving to a target within 1AP to 0 AP and for added value VS dash it add a variable damage bonus.

It’s definitely unlike a ranged attack in that the attacker has to move adjacent to the target, when the whole point of shooting is to avoid doing this.

Then there are two questions,

  1. what would differentiate them from one another?

  2. what would make them competitive VS ranged weapons?

I don’t suggest doing that. What I suggest in this thread Let's fix... weapons balance! is not for the sake of berskerks, it’s for the sake of balancing different weapon types so that they are all useful.

God, please no more teleportation, dash is already an awful mechanic.

If you can move next to something, for free, it’s the same as firing a bullet. And then you kill it to get the willpower back and do the same move again until you’ve completed the whole map. There’s enough in the game that’s already OP that way.

The 1st question is one for the devs, but you resolve number 2 with damage, hit chance, armour penetration and AP cost, it doesn’t need anything else, not that you can give special bonuses to different weaponry. Hammers for example could give bonus when striking the carapace of crabmen.

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Not really, because you are putting yourself in range of melee attack from the target itself, or a ranged attack from his buddies. Also, you can move only next to a target within 1 AP - hardly the distance at which ranged combat normally happens.

No, because the skill has a WP cost and an AP cost. You are still paying in APs for the attack, whatever its cost is.

The whole thing is hardly the distance at which melee combat normally happens either.

Actually my idea was to make a “charge” move part of the attack itself making both closing range and using momentum to make a stronger melee attack paying some AP and WP cost.

  • Normally you would pay 1 AP to come to the target and then 2 AP to hit it with a hammer (no WP cost)
  • The skill allows you to pay 2 AP + say, 3 WP to move to the target + hit it with bonus damage based on the distance closed

At least that’s what came to my mind after thinking about VOLAND’s idea.

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Yes, that’s the way I understood it and I like it better than my initial suggestion.

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Dash attack? Without interruption then. I think it’s how was working XCOM2 or LW2 sword attack. It requires a new UI to choose the position.

That would be only for close range weapon.

There’s another point, what skill to remove. Perhaps Bloodlust.

I really wonder if a dash attack would make Berzerk a class enjoyable and efficient to play single class.

EDIT:
At least it would open a simple combat trick to dash attack twice, second attack is to come back with the team. Clearly it would open a much bigger op hole with Rapid Clearance. The XCOM solution, in fact probably LW2, was to decrease attack damages for each attack in a chain.

You could just do that as part of a normal turn move and base it around a particular weapon; give melee a bonus to attack if you’ve moved towards the enemy that you’re attacking during that turn.

Makes sense with anything that stabs or causes impact damage, but not so much if it cuts.

I understand that you want to avoid implementing a specific charge skill, because you would rather have the same effect implemented through the general mechanics. However, I think this is precisely the kind of mechanic that warrants implementation through a skill. First, it’s clearly an ability that only berserkers should have as a comparative advantage VS other classes. Second, it’s reasonable that the berserkers should be able to close a short distance with an opponent relying on their WPs, saving 1 AP. Third, consider that per my original suggestion it is meant to replace the armor shred skill, which is pure meta.

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I understood what you’re proposing, but I don’t think it’s something which is needed as a skill. I’m not at all into Will being something that can make anyone run faster in any situation. I can see however that a class of solider who specialises in melee attacks would be stronger/better at it than others as a standard.

I think the other change for melee is to link damage to strength (again especially for impact weapons), give players a reason to pump up that stat.

Yes, I agree that melee weapons should scale with strength.