I would suggest to make the distance not fixed, but equal to the distance the soldier can cover with 1 AP use. And add damage bonus % equal to the distance covered after the ability activation. That would result in more distance for charge = more damage, potentially translating soldier Speed stat -> damage (especially with Frenzied status, which also should make sense)
I think this is good idea.
With this and imposing some distance limitations on weapons (so that some weapons - SR and HW - can’t be used on adjacent targets, AR and SG get accuracy penalty) and melee hits making the target stick in place (and receive a hit if they attempt to move away) (I started this thread Let's fix... weapons balance! on fixing balance between different weapon types to discuss this), melee and non-meta berserks would become relevant in the gameplay.
I really wouldn’t like to see a melee unit ‘appear’ next to an enemy, you’re basically just performing melee from distance then which turns it into a ranged weapon. I think the fix for melee needs to come from melee itself.
The first thing I’d suggest is that there should be a bigger range of melee weapons available to use.
Or give berserkers something to eat or drink during missions that will really turn them into a berserker.
Why bother make melee strong, in my opinion it would be better to have a larger perspective, with some personal skills adapted, or without multi class, it’s the only class not really efficient, that’s the complain.
Ok but to fix it should better focus on berzerk aspect.
Some random suggestions:
- Rage when enemy in x range, increased damages per enemy in range. Active state last one turn not cheap will cost.
- Panic is generating Rage at next turn and for one turn.
- Catalepsy, fall like dead for 2 turns.
- Throw close range weapon, increased damages.
- Class itself gives bonus to bash.
- Bash with close range weapon adds extra damages.
I’m quite doubfully on nerfing all classes for a one class problem. But perhaps more diversity on close range weapons can help.
Imho every melee weapon should be strong (for late game) and they should have side effect hit not just plain shredding armor. Gives some side effect such as panic, dazed, paralyze, cancel overwatch cone, cancel mind control, reduce enemy WP or doubled accu penalty. Current class for cqc are forcing player to use SMG and shotgun *I still didn’t find in current base game that using melee are great use in tactic, melee oriented need love! For sake of balance Imo this class can only have a single class but no restriction to use any faction melee weapons.
Edit : Just make sure don’t make this class into RAMBO
But is doesn’t turn melee into a ranged weapon. As suggest by @Lorifel what it would do is reduce the cost of moving to a target within 1AP to 0 AP and for added value VS dash it add a variable damage bonus.
It’s definitely unlike a ranged attack in that the attacker has to move adjacent to the target, when the whole point of shooting is to avoid doing this.
Then there are two questions,
what would differentiate them from one another?
what would make them competitive VS ranged weapons?
I don’t suggest doing that. What I suggest in this thread Let's fix... weapons balance! is not for the sake of berskerks, it’s for the sake of balancing different weapon types so that they are all useful.
God, please no more teleportation, dash is already an awful mechanic.
If you can move next to something, for free, it’s the same as firing a bullet. And then you kill it to get the willpower back and do the same move again until you’ve completed the whole map. There’s enough in the game that’s already OP that way.
The 1st question is one for the devs, but you resolve number 2 with damage, hit chance, armour penetration and AP cost, it doesn’t need anything else, not that you can give special bonuses to different weaponry. Hammers for example could give bonus when striking the carapace of crabmen.
Not really, because you are putting yourself in range of melee attack from the target itself, or a ranged attack from his buddies. Also, you can move only next to a target within 1 AP - hardly the distance at which ranged combat normally happens.
No, because the skill has a WP cost and an AP cost. You are still paying in APs for the attack, whatever its cost is.
The whole thing is hardly the distance at which melee combat normally happens either.
Actually my idea was to make a “charge” move part of the attack itself making both closing range and using momentum to make a stronger melee attack paying some AP and WP cost.
- Normally you would pay 1 AP to come to the target and then 2 AP to hit it with a hammer (no WP cost)
- The skill allows you to pay 2 AP + say, 3 WP to move to the target + hit it with bonus damage based on the distance closed
At least that’s what came to my mind after thinking about VOLAND’s idea.
Yes, that’s the way I understood it and I like it better than my initial suggestion.
Dash attack? Without interruption then. I think it’s how was working XCOM2 or LW2 sword attack. It requires a new UI to choose the position.
That would be only for close range weapon.
There’s another point, what skill to remove. Perhaps Bloodlust.
I really wonder if a dash attack would make Berzerk a class enjoyable and efficient to play single class.
At least it would open a simple combat trick to dash attack twice, second attack is to come back with the team. Clearly it would open a much bigger op hole with Rapid Clearance. The XCOM solution, in fact probably LW2, was to decrease attack damages for each attack in a chain.
You could just do that as part of a normal turn move and base it around a particular weapon; give melee a bonus to attack if you’ve moved towards the enemy that you’re attacking during that turn.
Makes sense with anything that stabs or causes impact damage, but not so much if it cuts.
I understand that you want to avoid implementing a specific charge skill, because you would rather have the same effect implemented through the general mechanics. However, I think this is precisely the kind of mechanic that warrants implementation through a skill. First, it’s clearly an ability that only berserkers should have as a comparative advantage VS other classes. Second, it’s reasonable that the berserkers should be able to close a short distance with an opponent relying on their WPs, saving 1 AP. Third, consider that per my original suggestion it is meant to replace the armor shred skill, which is pure meta.
I understood what you’re proposing, but I don’t think it’s something which is needed as a skill. I’m not at all into Will being something that can make anyone run faster in any situation. I can see however that a class of solider who specialises in melee attacks would be stronger/better at it than others as a standard.
I think the other change for melee is to link damage to strength (again especially for impact weapons), give players a reason to pump up that stat.
Yes, I agree that melee weapons should scale with strength.
Yes and no, Im’ not sure either that a dash attack will change the class enough to make it good for a single class build without any personal skill.
But a (close range) dash attack doesn’t exist, key differences:
- No move interrupt on enemy detected, higher risk action.
- It’s no dash replacement, it requires a target to attack.
- If damages is increased with move range (like in LW2 or XCOM2) it’s a specific aspect to manage that doesn’t exist yet in the game. Moreover often there will be a ratio further but higher risk.
- I think move range can be big because of attack required, and then it opens a unique feature to the class rush back help a body in distress.
But I could not have understand fully all suggestions so a Dash attack would be something like:
- 2AP and 2WP cost, perhaps mor WP.
- Only two uses per turn, if let open a double dash attack doesn’t open a big hole.
- 3 move range, and one melee attack, no non close range weapon allowed.
More HP, more carry capacity, I don’t see how STR can be ignored. That said it could be an interesting skill of the class if it can be balanced.
Personally I’m not a fan of Berserker Bloodlust or Infiltrator Stealth giving such massive damage boosts. There’s just too many damage boosts in this game making some characters godlike and overshadowing everything else by a large margin. I like how individually they each offer the ability to change a character who 90%'s an enemy into a kill instead, but the ability for them to all stack together makes it just ridiculous (in a fun way at first, but it’s way too overpowered… I’m looking at you Infiltrator with all +dmg and a grenade launcher+boom blast).
I mean you have a soldier with the Bombardier talent. Equip a rocket launcher on him. Fire at a cluster of tough enemies, shred armor and maybe disable a few limbs. Really softened them up for another soldier to pick them off. That’s what I expect.
That infil combo I mentioned, fires a grenade launcher at a cluster of enemies killing every single one of them, and then once again at the group of enemies inside a building by blowing a hole in the roof and portion of the second floor. I mean it’s fun in that devastating way, but it’s just too much if that’s the only thing that can do it and it wipes the floor that easily. As in this definitely needs to exist, but not be able to be fired twice in a turn and restricted to a specific class with specific lucky talents.
I think the talents should make characters powerful and interesting. But godly ability like that needs to be restricted to high AP/WP usage and/or high cost weapons with low ammo. It’s like a mini-nuke launcher. So make a mini-nuke launcher, 1 ammo, heavy as hell. Fun, too.
@ Rainer I think it’s safe to say that these godlike combos are not design choices. They are exploits that come from having a skill sandbox where the players are free to mix classes as they want.
For stealth what has been suggested (by @gauthel and me, among others in this thread Let's fix stealth!) is that infiltrator’s stealth should break when firing and require spending WPs and APs to get back into.
It’s possible that Rainer affirmation is right and dev just didn’t had time to tune the powerful skills and skipped various powerful combo.
Stealth problem is to not have a cap (85% seems fine), and exploit Stealth (100% damages) long range. I have Stealth sniper and it isn’t impressive at all, I think it’s come from not having the Sniper class.
Bloodlust problem is to self inflict injuries and exploit it long range, it’s more efficient than stealth because there isn’t the problem of being detected which is something to manage with a stealth cap at 85%. If the game can’t find any way to ignore self inflicted injuries, Bloodlust should probably be removed.
But saying the game is crap because of a ton of OP tools, that seems go very far. At this point it would be interesting to list the OP tools that can be totally ignored. As far I know the only “OP tool” I used was Rage Burst, and if the final don’t cause me problems, I’ll beat the game. So it’s a clue that all OP tool can be ignored but Rage Burst is still on question.
But I doubt Rage Burst isn’t a deliberate design, it’s possible as it had a previous version. I think there’s eventually a problem with Sniper Rifles, but i wonder why SR have so large clips.
At some point if you perform very well the game is almost constantly scaling up at very high levels, I mean something like Scylla, 2 bombard Chirons, 4 Sirens, 10 Crabs with 50 AR + grenades + poison, and certainly some more Tritons or Crabs (Sniper Triton can be very dangerous). Eventually if OP tools lead you there is it still easy at this scaling? If not, wasn’t this the goal of the design? And I don’t even mention the armor scaling up that require additional management.
It’s suspicious some players (not one) argue it’s easier at Legendary than Easy, that’s perhaps a part of the problem.
From my play and few let’s play, it’s clear that the game has some special setup that can lead to include easy combats along a campaign, but if a few are very hard, could be those that are the real target of the design, and “OP tools” are designed so you can beat them anyway.
That the game can be easy in some parts is plain obvious, that it is all along let me skeptical, I’d say let’s play please, and this would be welcome there’s too few. And nope a video just showing a combat show nothing.