OK, I see that argument.
Maybe I just didn’t understand how the sentence was meant … I’m not a native speaker
Where exactly is FTS, Super Arcade (from mid-game) added on Canny?
I can only see “Rebalance Speed Stat”. Did you mean this?
The problem is not the abilities, but how they are combined with other things (including with themselves, ie when they are spammed). The so-called Terminator Builds.
And, as @walan very well puts, they come too late for many of those players who find the game (which is complex and complicated) too difficult. Many players don’t even realize how to make these Terminator Builds, or how to use them if they stumble upon them, because they don’t look at the numbers when they play.
The Terminator Builds are there largely for the players who don’t want them, and the argument of those players who do advocate for them to remain in the game is not “I want them because I like them”, it’s “I need them because the enemies are too strong!”.
Can anyone point me to a single stream, YouTube video, review, post on this forum, anything where a player does a First Turn Strike and describes it as a wonderful experience that they would like to have over and over again and wish that other TBS games had this ‘feature’ too?
That’s why balancing the game so that there are no Terminator Builds (which also means that difficulty has to be balanced at each level so they are not needed)* is good for all players, current and future, and not just the dedicated ones.
*IMO, it makes sense to first remove the Terminator Builds, then rebalance difficulty, because with Terminator Builds around it’s hard to evaluate the real difficulty of the game. However, in practice both things are done simultaneously and little by little as part of general balancing.
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The thing there is, is that for some of us those “Terminator” / Superhuman builds aren’t that at all. For some they are seen as the positive result of time invested (via QUITE a few battles and XP), and we don’t want to see them removed from the game at all.
All of us should not have to have those kinds of changes put on us, just because a subset of the community want it. The changes you want should be optional NOT forced on the player base as a whole.
Not all of us play this game 24/7. We play other games (eg I’ve been playing a lot of Fallout New Vegas since isolation restrictions began a few months ago). So they are only an issue for you because you have played this game to the point that you know it back to back, the exploits etc etc.
For quite a few of us, we don’t want what you want changed in the game. We want it left exactly the way it is right now and left as is.
Are you sure we are talking about the same thing though? What are your Terminator Builds and how do you use them?
In 2 play throughs I’ve not had anything I’d define as a “Terminator” squad. Though in my current play through my 1st squad are just about maxed out in everything, and alpha strike out a Chiron or 2. That to me still isn’t invinceable though.
But I’m going by the descriptions of squads for that here, where they had abilities in such a way that were complete ass kickers in the 1st turn. However I can already see the way I play the game on the second play through compared to the 1st even with a squad of the same abilities and gear, to use ability combinations more, which keep your turn going longer, get more shots in etc etc.
I don’t want to look malicious now or anything like that.
Snapshot: Just look at what YOUR viewers see!
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Waiting for the enemy to take their turn when there is 20+ enemy units … this is the reason why I don’t like these kinds of games towards the end … They need to make AI smarter not throw more of it at you …
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End of Xcom2 - A dramatic fight versus multiple teleporting bosses and reinforcements, requiring you to move dynamically and use a variety of abilities
End of Phoenix Point - Nine dudes stood in a circle and rage burst a helpless artichoke for 10 rounds straight
Most liked comment: +77 -0
My theory is the devs ran out of time/budget before they could do all they wanted. There is a clear lack of polish and balancing issues present at several points. However the base of the game is really solid in my opinion. Early game ‘feels’ the best. Things get worse when the balance problems appear later and new stuff pretty much runs dry completely in the mid game. If they address the balancing to make it better and add more content, this game can and will be very, very good. I have high hopes that with this game’s commercial success the developers can spend the time and money to improve it and make it into the gem it was meant to be.
“That” are the real arguments for or against.
I’m just trying to hold the truth in front, even if that truth is currently being denied.
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But then you are not actually playing with Terminator Builds at all and haven’t played with them. How can you say then that you want them to remain in the game?
Because I’m going off what you said earlier, about what you wanted changed.
To which I say:
I want the Phoenix abilities left exactly as they currently are.
LOL 
Try them out first, will you?
And I rest my case.
Well you were saying about the mix of high level abilities. I have those in my maxed out squad. Like the one for using all of a magazine’s shots in 1 go, getting more action points when you kill an enemy etc etc.
Example of that in action. Jump to 2:50 and beyond for that battle.
Those don’t seem overpowered to me. They shorten how long it takes to take down an enemy sure. I don’t want that changed.
Which is why I constantly advocate making them Second Wave Options &/or only limiting them on the higher Difficulty Levels.
Though, based on your convo with Voland above, we seem to be running into the common confusion between alpha-strikes and Terminator Builds, which is why we coined the latter phrase to describe what we are talking about.
An alpha-strike as you describe it is perfectly legitimate:
That’s what these skills should be there for, and I for one would really miss them if they weren’t.
That, however, is a completely different kettle of fish to Terminator Builds like this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PhoenixPoint/comments/ea0fnk/ok_you_win_maybe_the_balance_is_a_little_off_i/
This is a pretty old video, but I couldn’t be bothered to trawl through hours of this crap for a better example. The principle still remains the same today: it’s fairly easy to construct a Terminator who can do this, fuelled by Rapid Clearance, Adrenalin Rush and the occasional support Rally.
Now Voland is wrong: some people actually like playing a game like this. They’re best epitomised by David2 on this site: Phoenix Point - new Julian Gollop turn-based strategy game - #878 by David2 - Games - Quarter To Three Forums – his posts on Mar 4 and Mar 8 are particularly revealing. But I’d hazard a guess that once he’s found all those combos to exploit, he’s dropping the game and moving on to the next shiny thing.
But I’m guessing that you’re thinking of alpha-strike abilities as a reward, @icemann , and would be as bored by a game full of Terminator Builds as the rest of us.
It’s not a good thing though. You are missing the fact that any game needs progression/evolution to keep it interesting. If you are just fighting the same type of enemies with some marginal buffs mission by mission, things will get boring very quickly.
If you can’t progress through skills, you need another form of progression.
I am all for skills which only provide marginal buffs, supported by a research system that provides tangible upgrades to soldier equipment facing off against the enemies whose capabilities evolve in a similar way. This is the crux of the “arms race” that is tried and test in X-Com/Xenanauts/XCOM for years.
It’s admirable that they tried a different approach for PP with “side-grades” but is hasn’t worked and this should have been identified before the game was even released.
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Well maybe. I’ve just not played the game to the extent to discover an unbeatable build as of yet. Everything I’ve built up had a counter of some sort if I got a bad mix of enemies. Haven missions for example, if I got 2 explosion Chiron’s and a Scylla then yep I’m screwed.
Though with alpha striking maybe that mix would be easier. Especially as I got 2 Chiron’s and a Scylla on that video I linked above.
Well the YouTuber doesn’t comment one way or the other, but it appears he takes pleasure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsRliNChLbk&t=303s
Well: there will always be players who want nuclear weapons with infinite range and kills. One more thing: immortality shouldn’t be missing 
Fun on the side: If Snapshot designed the mid- and end-game for such a game style, it is their right, but they have to live with the consequence that the genre tactic was left with it.
Have you noticed that this guy is playing with self restrictions??
He is not using Rapid Clearance.
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And I’d argue that if the enemy is balanced for a tactical to-and-fro, that in itself is going to ultimately be more interesting than clicking from Target A-Z however many times it takes to clear the map, as the two video examples above show.
I’m all for more variety of enemies & skills, as long as they make for interesting gameplay. All I’m saying is that as Squad Skills and Panda progression are currently balanced, they ultimately make the game completely uninteresting for me, unless I impose some self-restrictions.
That’s not true for other players - I get that. Which is why I… Second Wave Options… yadda yadda.
TBH, I think the ‘side grades’ haven’t worked mainly because the old Panda Evolution system merely buffed their armour/HP/damage output, without adding any variety into the mix. So you do end up facing the same old, same old enemy again and again and again, and the only difference is this one’s got 50 Armour and 300HP and can kill your squaddie with one shot. So instead of a game of maneouvre and counter-maneouvre, you are reduced to spamming skills so that you can run all the way across the map and kill him before he kills you.
And Rage Burst 
You are missing my point. Even assuming there is perfect balance throughout the whole game, it will still get boring if there is no progression.
I don’t disagree. But as the game stands now, surely the priorities should be:
- Balance the game
- Add more interesting progression.
1 is currently impossible without dealing with Terminator Builds and Super-Pandas, which ultimately feed off each other. So fix those, balance the game accordingly, then get on with adding all the other cool stuff it took the likes of XCOM 10 years to refine.