I don’t know. We would need to ask what we can share. Still I suppose that community manager would prefer to do that on his own rather than allowing us to do that.
And definitely I wouldn’t want to be person writing such report. 
My English is poor and I can’t elaborate on things… And I don’t want to brake NDA in any part.
I won’t bother to tell them that Community Council design is flawed. Telling about game flaws is enough for me. 
I don’t mind who would do that as long as would have it. 
CC exists for over a year and we didn’t get even single one.
Who will, then? @Valygar is Community Manager as far as I know. Yet he is the most sneakiest one I have ever seen: he manages community by not interacting with it in any way.
So in the end the purpose of this CC is not to make game better for TBS players. It’s also not to make game better for casual because you’re not qualified to do that. It doesn’t represent community either. So what is the purpose of the CC? To catch wheater the game crashes after SnapShot patches the game. So if this is the main purpose of CC how can we expect CC to produce any results.
And I don’t blame CC people for that. This is mainly SnapShot design choice which produces its results. Meaning delivering patches and updates without crashes. It does its job for no cost it seems. But don’t tell me CC goal is to make PP game better. Maybe some members have those goals but clearly you fooling yourself if you think CC is for that. It’s maybe for making better some predefined vision of the game that devs have. But this is nothing about “better version” for player. It’s better version for devs, which don’t play the game. So another contradiction and toilet without door respawning. CC hasn’t have any tools to do anything better. It isn’t even being heard properly. For me they just pretend to listening to you so people working for zilich would no leave their posts. OTherwise they would need to pay for work like decent company.
It is their game after all, not “community’s” (which isn’t a well-defined entity with a clear consensus view anyway). And they do play the game, don’t be daft.
Yeah. I saw that guy from Phoenix Point channel. Like he’s playing this only because he created this. There is no passion for the game. I doubt he would play it if he hadn’t created it. So he is a TBS gamer like I’m an astronaut. If they’re making this for poeple like them then I wish them luck. Start making the game for players like TorNis7. You’ll have better results.
And yes this is their game. But I assume their goal is to make a game for community and not for themselves. Like you have all those poeple who have expert knowledge about the game. Some of them they even hired without paying them anything. And those people have much more knowledge than devs about the game from players perspective. And having all those opportunities they using them as game-crash catchers because they think they have sufficient telemetry data to know all answers. Guess what, even if you have telemetry data you still need to know how to interpret those data. I doubt SnapShot is good at this data reading otherwise we would have different results. So stop fooling yourself that you can read those telemetry data and start working with real gamers. But maybe that programmers thing. You know. Working with numbers instead of poeple. Maybe that’s the real reason why communication sucks.
Maybe it is time to admit that Community Council does not work as we all thought it will. Rename it to Beta Tester program or something that better describes what it actually is, if you don’t mind continue doing it (I suppose that’s why @MichaelIgnotus and @mcarver2000 are so defensive about it, because of risk of loosing it if we start talking about it).
I am tired of hearing how mere existence of Community Council is a proof of them being one of the most proactive and engaging game developers out there. They are not. It is extended backer program with exclusive privledge to speak directly with some of employees (yet with NDA on everything they may hear).
i don’t really see my comments as being defensive. I am just attempting to answer as honestly as I can. The CC is, and was not meant to be the “end-all” solution to SG attempting to address their users’ concerns, It is just one of the many tools they have used,
If you have some better suggestions, please let us know.
Added note: No one, not even the CC can change the designers’ vision of the game. All any of us can do is aid them in making their vision work within their design. Even some CC members have been extremely frustrated when they have not been able to force changes to the designers’ vision. The die was cast long before the release of the game. Expecting it to be greatly altered is a rather misguided wish. There are some tweaks forecasted that will address some users’ concerns. I for one wish the ongoing bug issues can be one of them. But honestly, I don’t see that happening in the near future.
Valygar surely helps him but I don’t know titles. 
He introduced himself as one about year ago. As far as I remember @UnstableVoltage was the real and main Community Manager, yet I have no idea what happened. I saw a post somewhere where he says he doesn’t act here (as community manager I assume) for a year or so already. I assumed Valygar replaced him when UV couldn’t continue for his own reasons.
Well it’s role wasn’t specified. We only speculated about it. My impressions were like I have mentioned. So yep I’m disappointed, but if it still has impact and is useful then I’m not sure there anything to admit or need to rename it. 
Implying that if something is not broken (and require F10) I should read a Wiki to learn how it works, in response to me asking for CC feedback about Overwatch design issues isn’t something I would call honest attempt to answer.
What? That was an honest answer. The devs cannot be expected to know what one user’s experience is unless they see the logs and get the saved files. Also, a lot of the issues I have experienced with OW is due to my user error and not following some of the tips giving in the wiki link I gave. If I were to simply express that “some” users are crying foul about OW in the CC, the answer would basically be the same – F10 it. That’s what we (CC members) are told to do we express such concerns. If that is being dishonest then I guess there is no honest answer one could give.
That may be true, but me asking what is the purpose of Community Council is perfectly valid. We don’t know. Those of us not being part of Community Council had own assumptions that turned out false. Hell, even you can’t agree on what CC is supposed to be and few of you are part of CC since the very beggining. 
I think the existence of CC in current for is a convenient excuse how to not have to deal with us and our issues directly. Some privledged, picked from this forum people, may have an impact, yet this is not even remotely related to you being “community” council. We have no idea what is reported, what is being addressed, what SG answered. Yet, we have CC and that somehow solves it, as we have our inside guys (we can’t talk with anymore because NDA :P).
What the hell are you talking about? Do they need logs and save files to know that Overwatch triggers in a sequential manner by design since it was implemented? How is telling me to read a Wiki is supposed to give me devs answer if that could be changed to something more logical? Your answer is longer version of “if it is not a bug then fuck you and git gud”.
You are agreeing that it is not a bug? You are saying it’s a design choice and that SG “must” alter their design because some users don’t like it? If your only issue is with the design, I can understand that. But in reality, I wouldn’t expect any game designer to revamp their design because some users just don’t like it. The die was cast, users have to learn to live with it or find some other product that delivers their needs.
I don’t mean to say one isn’t free to complain about such things, I am just trying to be realistic about expectations from such criticisms.
I don’t think CC was a ever conceived as an interface between community and developers, in the sense that we would be communicating to the community at large what’s going in the CC and in our talks witb the devs.
We did dip into that a little, often acting as ambassadors for SG because we wanted to explain e.g. certain design decisions or inner workings that we had become aware and felt that telling about them wouldn’t break the NDA.
Tbh it was a very uncomfortable and unpleasant position, at least for me personally, and at some point I just quit, first from the Steam forums and now largely from here too.
I actually brought this issue up with @Snapshot_EE and he agreed that it was their job to communicate with the community, not ours.
So this is something that SG has to work on and if you have some suggestions on how to do that, I suggest to bring it up here.
Now, for my part I will say I know for a fact that stuff that gets posted here as far as feedback for the game is concerned, including negative feedback (crazy rants, ad hominem attacks and stuff like that, not so much), reaches the devs. What is probably improvable is feedback on the feedback. However, in any event, that’s not CC’s role.
Mosly we are just (another) source of feedback, but it’s not like there is a textbook strictly describing what we are supposed to be.
Of course I am. I have never said this is a bug. This is bad design and is against any UX expectations.
Yes, and I am pretty sure we have asked to change the design at least few times. And because of that we have new acid damage. And scavenging missions. And better nests. And we can recruit at PP bases. And redesigned rage burst. And many others. Neither of that was a result of “bug”, but a design decision we have asked to change over and over again. Yet now you feel surprised, that we can and do ask for change the sequential overwatch.
How many example I will have to give you to convince you that design is not set in stone, may and is improved all the time?
Overwatch aside, this was just an example. I have been told, by you and Michael, that you regulary post issues on CC meetings and asks devs. I ask about feedback you get in return. How am I supposed to get dev feedback from F10 (did anyone ever got anything in reponse to issue?) or, what is even more dumb, from Wiki page?
Sequential way of how overwatch is working is probably too hard to change right now. But maybe we can fight for the much more heavy “bullet time” effect. So when one soldier is shooting, then less time passes - enemy animation is slowed down a lot. Then next soldier would start while still seeing enemy in less or more the same spot as the previous soldier. Who knows maybe this can be changed.
Still it is hard to say if devs will be willing to change that, as with some design decisions they are really stubborn.