Community Council Debate

[SpiteAndMalice]

@MichaelIgnotus

Not is Snapshot does it right. Let’s say they pick 6 Advocates. They’ll all have expressed their opinions many times on these forums, and while those opinions will be very wide-ranging, for the sake of this argument, we’ll break them down into their most simplistic stances:

• 1 thinks Squad Skills are too OP
  1 things that Panda numbers etc should be nerfed - and that ‘acid is insane!’
  1 thinks the game is just about right
  1 thinks that there isn’t enough variety in weapons or armour within the game
  1 thinks the Pandas aren’t powerful or varied enough to provide a challenge
  1 thinks that the open Skills sandbox is the best thing in the game and shouldn’t be touched.

Even in just those 6 over-simplified caricatures, Snapshot has pretty much covered most of the bases that get touched upon in many more than one way, shape or form on these forums. And I’d say about 80-90% of the silent majority will have at least one articulate advocate for their unspoken views in just those 6 voices.

As I say, it works if Snapshot deliberately picks people who between them give voice to all sides of the spectrum, not just one narrow view of the way the game should evolve.

It’s a nice ideal in theory, but a couple of points to consider:

a) What if it doesn’t go like that? What if, for example, those 6 people are all in favour of a game that’s based around OP skills and alpha striking? That’s the direction that release 1.0 strongly headed towards, if Snapshot want to make a game that’s successful based around that model, they’ll potentially pick 6 people whose viewpoints of how the game should be matches with their own. They’ve now got a community council that’s going to agree with everything that’s proposed towards that OP alpha striking goal, and can get useful feedback which reinforces their view point of how the game should be. Anyone who doesn’t hold that same viewpoint of OP skills and alpha striking being a good thing, doesn’t even get to see the discussion that’s happening, let alone have the chance to provide an opposite view point. And yes, that’s an extreme example, (for me personally it’s a nightmare one) but people’s views are fluid and vary from topic to topic, it’s nigh on impossible to represent everyone’s views with just a small number of people.

b) Even if you do get a balanced range of views being held within a community council that represents 80-90% of the player base, the other 10-20% opinion could still be the right direction to go, sometimes that person who post less often, is less entrenched in their viewpoint, and thinks outside the box is the one that comes up with something that really improves the game.

@MichaelIgnotus

But rather than put it out there and get the usual cacophony of reactions to the next ‘patch’ so to speak, they are looking for a small and dedicated group of players who have proven from their participation on these forums that they can look at the game in a fairly objective fashion and say: ‘This works for this type of player, but it doesn’t work in this situation because of X. However, if you do Y, it should achieve the outcome we think you’re looking for.’

Who on the forum is trying to put forward a view with an aim of making the rest of the player-base happy at the expense of their own personal preferences for the game? I know you said ‘fairly’ objective, and I’d say that some people are more objective than others, but I’d say that anyone already on here, has got too much of a vested interest in how they see their own vision of the game as being to be a suitable choice to give feedback. - I include myself in that. Yes, I’ll try to put forward a balanced argument, and consider what’s going to make other players happy, but at the end of the day I also know what type of game I’d rather be playing.

[MichaelIgnotus]

@SpiteAndMalice

a) What if it doesn’t go like that? What if, for example, those 6 people are all in favour of a game that’s based around OP skills and alpha striking?

My point is that it won’t be - because if it is, Snapshot know that they will ultimately lose 30% of their most loyal customer base (you and me included). Equally, it won’t be made up entirely of people who think that all Skills should be nerfed, for precisely the same reasons. But it will and should have a strong advocate for both of those opinions, because they are the two strongest polarities in the game.

But to look at it another way: so what if it does? If that’s the way that Snapshot wants to take this game, and they need a group of passionately supportive people to volunteer as Wormerine’s ‘guinea pigs’ to make it happen, that’s their prerogative. It is, after all, Snapshot’s creation and they are entirely free to point this game in whatever direction they think best. They would lose me, they would lose you, they would lose 50% of the people who post regularly on these forums and the people whose views we represent - but maybe they would gain thousands of Fortnite players, who knows?

Don’t think that’s going to happen, but if it does, it’s the way they want to go so good luck to 'em.

@SpiteAndMalice

b) Even if you do get a balanced range of views being held within a community council that represents 80-90% of the player base, the other 10-20% opinion could still be the right direction to go, sometimes that person who post less often, is less entrenched in their viewpoint, and thinks outside the box is the one that comes up with something that really improves the game.

And right now, that lowly little 10% is being drowned in all the noise…

UV has already said, they’ll still be monitoring the forums. So will the Advocates, whoever they are - because you’re right: they’re geeks who are obsessed with this game, and can’t stop talking about it to other people. So if a gem of an idea pops up, it has just as much chance of being spotted and championed by one of the more active voices on these forums as it would in an open beta - and if that happens, it has a higher chance that the devs will ultimately pay attention to it than it does at the moment.

@SpiteAndMalice

Who on the forum is trying to put forward a view with an aim of making the rest of the player-base happy at the expense of their own personal preferences for the game?

You, Voland, me to name the three I know best. We all believe that the game is broken and that the way to fix it is to nerf everything. But we also acknowledge that there is a large sub-section of players out there who don’t agree with us - so we constantly propose solutions that will enable those players to keep playing the kind of game they want to play, whilst giving us the kind of game we think it should be.

You’re right: every single one of us wants to tailor this game to our own personal preferences - we wouldn’t spend hours on these forums if we didn’t - but there are a good number of people on here who have the game’s best interest at heart, rather than their own personal agendas. What Snapshot has to do is find a handful of them who can test and argue over the best way to hit that sweet spot in the middle which will satisfy (almost) everybody.

If Snapshot are really clever, they will ultimately take a leaf out of Firaxis’ book and give each player the option to tailor the game to their own personal tastes in a Game Preferences Menu at the start of each new game.

And the 10% who still haven’t been represented can go and play something else, because this clearly isn’t the game for them.

[Omega]

My goodness, so many fears for an easy job, testing and giving feedback. Developers are blind to their work and need a new point of view every now and then to know if development is going in the right direction. Trying out new things without throwing everything over board or just testing new features without having to rely on internal staff.

There are enough players here in the forum that would be excellent. Take the offer people, help us and the game. I really appreciate how openly PP communicates here. Best regards and stay healthy.

[Yokes]

@SpiteAndMalice

Even if you do get a balanced range of views being held within a community council that represents 80-90% of the player base, the other 10-20% opinion could still be the right direction to go, sometimes that person who post less often, is less entrenched in their viewpoint, and thinks outside the box is the one that comes up with something that really improves the game.

And you try to build ideal democracy… Which would probably fail. @SpiteAndMalice don’t be so afraid of that small council. You think that they can make game worse?

[SpiteAndMalice]

@Yokes

@SpiteAndMalice don’t be so afraid of that small council.

Hmmm ‘Small council’ is probably not the best of analogies to use if you really want to ease any concerns here Yokes.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/boY4kJ18OqY/maxresdefault.jpg

And I’m not afraid of it, but I do feel that for some of the people applying to be involved that in their minds that what this will actually be is a power grab; a chance to have more influence whilst not being so bothered by the people that might disagree with you.

[MichaelIgnotus]

If that’s the case, I think they need to get ready for disappointment.

[mcarver2000]

Again, from what Snapshot has said, the council is basically going to beta test mechanic changes. This is to help prevent issues like double explosive damage, insane acid, etc. No where have they indicate that it is to be a Star Chamber. Their goal is to improve the product, not destroy it.

[SpiteAndMalice]

@MichaelIgnotus

And right now, that lowly little 10% is being drowned in all the noise…

UV has already said, they’ll still be monitoring the forums. So will the Advocates, whoever they are - because you’re right: they’re geeks who are obsessed with this game, and can’t stop talking about it to other people. So if a gem of an idea pops up, it has just as much chance of being spotted and championed by one of the more active voices on these forums as it would in an open beta - and if that happens, it has a higher chance that the devs will ultimately pay attention to it than it does at the moment.

I’m not so sure that having an ‘advocate’ between the person posting and the developers is going to help matters any in that respect, you’re just adding another gatekeeper between the idea and the team that can potentially use it.

To that end Canny was probably a good move as in theory each idea had equal visibility, unfortunately in practice Canny is awful at highlighting anything but the earliest ideas that have been posted.

@MichaelIgnotus

If Snapshot are really clever, they will ultimately take a leaf out of Firaxis’ book and give each player the option to tailor the game to their own personal tastes in a Game Preferences Menu at the start of each new game.

That.

[SpiteAndMalice]

@MichaelIgnotus

If that’s the case, I think they need to get ready for disappointment.

I really do hope that it’s not the case. I think this would work far better with a group of experienced beta-testers that have no vested interest in the game.

Anyway, as this thread has been split I’m going to guess that Snapshot will now be ignoring it and I’m going to be arguing against the wind. Either way I’ve raised my concerns

[MichaelIgnotus]

“Bloody comedians nick all my best quotes,” Thomas More, Utopia.

[Yokes]

@SpiteAndMalice

Hmmm ‘Small council’ is probably not the best of analogies to use if you really want to ease any concerns here Yokes.

To be true some in that small council were the best what Lannisters had to offer.

[UnstableVoltage]

I’ll just reiterate here, as it doesn’t seem to be clear. The development team/designers are still the ones steering the ship.

Having a group which we can test ideas on for feedback (which we can then take into account) doesn’t mean that the Community Council is having any direct say in how the game develops. I’m going to close the thread at this point, and we’ll agree to disagree.

Other studios have used this to great effect. We’ve got a few things planned that we want to do with the Community Council, not all of which we can yet reveal.