Class System feedback & suggestions

Hello here

I am new to Phoenix Point (PP), just bought it on steam week ago

I am really impressed with PP, have not finishing campaign yet, but I have arround 32 hours, so I am confidence enough to say some feedback.

In my view, what really needs to have attention from developers and fans is a class system, and especially heavy class with use/purpose of heavy weapons

In the current state (december 2020), the default heavy class armed with a starter cannon works as a melee fighter, with a “Brawler” perk, is better in melee than melee concepted Berserker class - super efectvive bash costs 1AP and Berserker’s Hammer costs 2AP

Heavy weapons, which cost 3AP are useless, due to lack of mobility, it is more effective to come close to enemy and use bash attack, or use a pistol for 1AP or shotgun for 2AP

Only effective way how to use a Heavy class with heavy weapons is to get multiclass, and get " Dash" ability from Assault, or “Quick Aim” from Sniper, and finally “Master Marksman” would make heavy weapons accurate;
so here we came to my point, other 2 classes work well with their “basic weapons” without need to get multiclass, the heavy needs it to be effective with using heavy weapons.

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Heavy class is my favorite class because it’s the only class capable of using jetpacks and grenade launchers, and both are an amazing addition to any team.

Heavy + sniper equals jumping to a high point and sniping everyone.

Heavy + grenade launcher means blasting groups of enemies or enemies out of line of fire well before they reach you.

In early game even if you don’t multiclass, a heavy with the default autocannon is a fantastic defender - setup close range overwatch and it’ll just destroy any arthron that tries to get close.

The autocannon daze has also saved me so many times for enemies that I can’t almost quite kill immediately.

While a heavy with New Jericho machine gun is an absolute monster at shredding armor - especially great for missions where you have to destroy key structures and not have to waste a ton of non-heavy ammo.

I’ve played the game just past the 30 hour mark too but I think you haven’t experimented with the heavy enough to be honest.

The whole multiclass system is really great from my experience because you can build really unique soldiers and squads, but you really need to test out different setups to see what works in certain situations.

For example, I absolutely love vehicles and make it a point to have one for every team despite smaller squad size. Vehicles make it easy for scavenge and rescue missions or even to hide your disabled soldiers, but also great at coming straight to Triton snipers and mulching them face-on so the team can kill all the other enemies.

So coming back to heavies - they’re really really good! I don’t even bother with quick aim or master marksman for them and have no issues keeping them close to enemies.

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@karoten2 the way they designed the pure heavy is to be a close range fighter. That leads everyone to your conclusion (including myself, search for heavy topics here and you’ll find huge discussions about it). It was even worse before the Year One Edition, since they’ve now diminished the accuracy malus of heavy armor.

I agree with you that the heavy should be more effective with the use of heavy weapons than with bash, and also that bash shouldn’t be stronger than melee berserkers. In this regard I think bash is too OP and could use a nerf, hitting harder than other classes but much less than melee attacks.

For now, what I do is… I use cybernetics or mutations that give +acc and/or +speed in the head and legs. I also up their speed to max ASAP and then strength. A fast heavy that can carry different heavy weapons (cannon, machine gun, grenade launcher and if really strong a flamethrower too) is a very versatile soldier. He has a good solution for most situations. Think about uses for war cry when you cannot shoot and also use the grenade launcher while they’re not much mobile yet. Later in the game if you get NJ tech you’ll also have access to mounted weapons. There’s some that are good from far away.

@Ziel is right in that experimentation is key, some options look like trash in the specs but can be good in the correct situation, like flamethrowers vs unarmored or low-armored foes.

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@Ziel

Yes, I founded the heavy class very effective and with a multiclass is really possible to make super-soldier in multiple ways,

but I am talking about default Heavy “Monoclass”, armed with a heavy weapon ,

and I am directly compare Phoenix Point class design with other games with soldier/weapons class system and turn based combat with AP

Lets say, that I decide to use my heavy class with heavy weapon (deafault phoenix cannon) as a offensive damage dealer, not grenade launcher, not multiclass,
It is very ineffective to be objective
and with the 2 other basic classis - Sniper monoclass and Assault monoclass (no multi-class) work fine as offensive damage dealer, to get multi-class is optional for them, but heavy needs it to became effective with heavy weapons

So this is my point

@sectoid_br

The design of heavy is wrong in my opinion. Pure heavy does not really work as the close range fighter in practice, pure heavy works perfect as melee fighter (Brawler and 1AP dash, high armour), support (War Cry, Inspire abilities) and grenadier (Boom Blast ability)

I would say, that the pure heavy miss the mobility to be effective, for close range fighter is simple better to use shotgun - 2AP, or If it is enemy is close (1AP movement), insted of shot from heavy weapon - 3AP, with a brawler perk it is more effective to come close and 3x 1AP dash

(And does not fill the “tank” role very well either)

2 Likes

Okay, now it is time for my first suggestion…

I would give to Heavy a basic ability, which allows to use heavy weapons for 2AP , but snapshot, not free aim, cost can be 3 or 2 will points, and can be use only once per turn,

and (optional) need to recharge in 2 turns - so You can not use it every turn

This would bring heavy soldier to the “frontline”, and would not broke game balance (in my theory)
If we would reduce the use of heavy weapons to 2AP instead of 3AP, it would be overpowered

  • With the heavy weapons themselves - their effective range should be in the middle between shotgun and assault riffle,

  • Heavy weapons have less penalty to accuracy with heavy weapons, like for example Phoenix’s “Golem” Heavy Body Armor has -8% aiming penalty, and only -4% for heavy weapons especially

  • With the sniper’s ability Master marksman - the shotguns and heavy weapons are excluded

  • the melee damage with brawler perk is too big, reduce from 50% to 30%, or even less

I want to add, you can see in practice, how the AI use the New Jerricho’s and Bandit’s Heavy soldiers,

What do You think? I do not say, it “should” like this, it is just my theory, but I think, it would be “step forward”

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Well, better than any other class as long as he wears heavy armor or augmentation and gets his strength stat increased.

Which skill will you sacrifice for that? Brawler, War Cry, Inspire?
I don’t thing you would sacrifice Boom Blast or Rage Burst, both are what a Heavy should have in my opinion.
I’m not sure if this would be too powerful, all heavy weapons have a high damage per burst/shot, more than sniper rifles.
But if so, then I would vote for Brawler to sacrifice, changing this one to something like you mentioned would be not that bad.

Edit: Maybe a real “snapshot” with an accuracy penalty (-25% to -50%)? I think then it would be fine even with free aim.

Actually there is no skill with a real cooldown in the game and I doubt they will go this way, even when I would like to have it for some of the more powerful skills.

Were they actually are, the starter heavy weapon, the Tyr-1 AC, is with 20 range very close to assault rifles and even the Deceptor (14 range) has a better range than any shotgun (exception is only the new Slamstrike single shot SG).

This! :+1:
I would go ahead and reduce it to no accuracy penalty at all for heavy weapons when wearing heavy armor, this would be a huge buff for them and probably anything else is obsolete.
One of the first things I almost do in a campaign is to get the Samnu armor from the Living Weapons Pack and switch my heavies helmet and leg armor but keep the jump jet body armor for mobility and mounted weapons. This heavy then has overall +2% accuracy (2 * +5% from the Samnu parts and -8% form the heavy body part), I can shot with the Tyr-1 on reasonable ranges and I do it pretty often.

I would not exclude anything for Master Marksman, it is a sniper skill and the sniper needs a distance of 10 tiles to any enemy so that it is active. I would rather increase this activation distance, maybe up to 15 or even 20 tiles.

Maybe not bad, it feels a bit stupid that a heavy with this perk is a better melee fighter than any other, even Berserker.
Combined with your snapshot suggestion above and just get rid of this perk could be a way to go, IMO.

Hello and welcome!

This has been the subject of much heated debate for a long while now :slight_smile:

And the latest round concluded with the changes made in Polaris/YOE, where penalty from heavy armor to accuracy was halved (from 30 to 15%), speed penalty reduced from 3 to 2, and a new starting weapon added with a slightly higher accuracy (20 ER vs Hel II 17), and the accuracy of the Deceptor slightly bumped as well (from 11 to 14 ER).

I’m happy with those changes (and I advocated for them), even though I wasn’t miserable before them either, tbh.

There is one more thing that I would like, which is a stability stance, probably linked to heavy leg armor. Spend 1 AP to enter it or to leave it and your accuracy gets +50% but you can’t move and have to stand up (so can’t take advantage of high cover step out, nor of shooting from low cover, but you could combine it with someone in front using the combat shield).

About the heavy role vs other games, tbh I find that the comparison doesn’t hold, not only because in PP roles are not dictated by class, but because of how accuracy and damage works. This is because the measure of accuracy - effective range - is very misleading. It seems to suggest that this effective range is somehow related to the range at which you can optimally engage targets, but really it’s not, because the range at which a weapon can be used effectively also depends on its damage (what and how it deals it; high burst low damage per projectile vs low burst high damage per projectile) and the enemy and the targets its made from (that is, body parts).

This is to say that shotguns that have an ER of 8 - 10, for enemies with 20 armor or more have to be used at a range of 1 or 2 tiles max to be effective.

Similarly, assault rifles with ER of 22-31 have to be used at a distance of perhaps 4 - 8 tiles against similar targets; this is because you really have to hit a specific body part with these weapons when dealing with armored enemies.

By contrast, heavy weapons with much more modest ER 14 - 20, can be used at higher ranges with the same enemies because of the punch they pack. For example, a heavy in heavy armor can use the Hel II Cannon against a shield covered Arthron directly in front of it at 12 tiles, or even more if you are willing to put with some RNG, because it will break the shield and daze most Arthrons. To attack the same Arthon from the same angle with a Deimos AR (which has an ER of 31), you would have to get much closer so as target some thin limb.

In conclusion, I don’t think that there is any need to further increase accuracy with heavy weapons when wearing heavy armor: it’s already good as it is.

However, I would like the stability stance because it adds a new option with an associated risk that you can mitigate.

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Just give everyone a small bonus for a “complete armor set”. In case for heavy e.g. buff accuracy to 0% overall.
AND take the skill “brawler” away and give him something “more suitable” e.g. “stabilized shot” or something like that.

Yes, this and all meele classes too.

4 Likes

I’d say they’re pretty balanced without the jetpack/bash/warcry combo or cross-specialization. I find it weird that they get Jetpacks at the very beginning of the game. It’s the flying armor from the end of Xcom, right at the beginning. The Jetpacks allow for a “drop-kick attack” (Jump -> Bash) or a “shockwave” attack (Jump -> War Cry), and these attacks are really powerful and seemingly unnecessary for the beginning of the game. They change the game completely, and I’d argue in a worse (but easier) way.

Force yourself to not use the jetpack and then see how it plays, or don’t use any of the skills or jet pack and see how it plays in the first few missions. Harder, but (imo) more interesting. Instead of jumping on top of the New Jericho compound and War Cry the soldiers or distracting/confusing their movement patterns, I’m instead running into the compound or running around and tanking them from a cover position (like you’d expect a heavy would) while blowing them away on subsequent turns or as they walk into my overwatch. If I’m not using Heavy Armor, I’d be setting him up like an emplacement and waiting for enemies to walk into the cone while having the other soldiers cover him.

Can’t jump from crate to crate in early scavenging missions. Can’t jump to rescue soldiers easily on early defense/rescue missions. Can’t jump to grab willpower points really easily. Can’t jump (with a combination of any specialization) to a superior vantage point and clean up within a turn. … at the beginning of the game. Suddenly bash doesn’t matter because you’d only use it when ejecting out of a vehicle in front of an enemy or on the rare occasion something closes in but doesn’t die (but does continue to matter in cross-specialization or for when you do get the jetpack).

Why heavy armor even exists as equipment at the beginning of the game still eludes me, as most weaponry doesn’t even hurt it. Yet we have to research the shotgun???

Take away the heavy armor, and instead equip the “heavy” with the Tyr autocannon, Banshee legs, Odin armor and Odin helmet and you’ve got someone who’s got enough accuracy to hit at medium range while still being able to hide behind light cover provided there are no snipers (not that heavy armor did much against them anyway).\

Alternatively, ever try outfitting an entire team with heavy armor? Did that a few patches ago, things were super-smooth despite having worse accuracy back then. Clearing a Lair took 15 minutes instead of 30, because of jumping (makes sense at that stage). Early on in the game, enemies would literally ignore fighting my troops and instead just end their turn because they couldn’t do enough damage to anyone of my soldiers. :face_with_raised_eyebrow: It was weird, just like how getting a scarab out right away enables to you to back-to-back raid for resources since most enemies posses little-to-no ability to hurt your vehicle vs. your ability to pick up one of their shotguns and eject-kill them instantly.

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I disagree, you’re trading 1 AP for less accuracy, so you would need to use this 1AP to get closer, and there would be no gain at all from the skill. The only usage would be when you’re already close, or when you use this for other class’s weapons.

Agree. Also what @walan said later is even better, a synergy bonus to a “complete armor set” would be a great option too. That would give more pause to just exchanging everyone to a sniper helmet, and making choices more difficult / balanced. Really liked this.

About the heavies / melee enemies, they really are no threat. The AI just shows how much more difficult it is to work with heavies than with any other class. Yes those of us that spent hundreds / thousands of hours with the game reach workarounds, but why should only this class need it? The same happens with assaults mid game when the range of AR’s becomes very diminished. Most of the time it’s just better to invest in speed or use dash, and use the shotgun. We’ve been through this before. Priests are also weak since MC became very difficult. The other classes by themselves though, they don’t suffer as these, much to the contrary. They don’t need to be worked around or dual-classed to be very effective.

Because that’s much of what they’re good for in the beginning of the game. I think that’s the devs intended use for heavies in the beginning of the game. Note that I’m not agreeing, I wouldn’t mind having the jetpack later it does make sense. As a first-time player I just used the heavy as an scout instead of assaults because I didn’t understand hearing mechanics yet. Then later on I kept doing it because early game we now only have melee enemies and they aren’t much of a threat.

In the end, I would much rather have heavies more accurate from mid-range in the beginning with a weaker weapon (already happened) and later on getting a stronger, just a bit less accurate weapon (already happened). The only thing that’s missing for this scenario is removing the acc penalty from (a complete set of) heavy armor.

That would also be great, and I wouldn’t mind losing bash for it.

I would n make this skill base ability for lv. 1 , so even bandits and NJ can use heavies…
if 1 skill need to replace, definitelly Brawler, to be honest, this skill defines the heavy class as a melee fighter in practice
Brawler can be nerfed and become random skill like Healer

no accuracy penalty, the meaningfull penalty would be no free aim, the meaning of this skill would be to bring theavy to the frontline; and with -25% accuracy penalty would be useless again

Heavy weapons & armor
The the point is that heavy armor makes heavy weapons almost useless

Sniper’s Master marksman -
well, this skill seems to broke game balance a bit, unnaturally improves the Aim of shotgun and heavy weapons to distant enemies

2 Likes

How do you explain this skill to yourself, and what +/- does it have?

Exactly to emphasise bringing the Heavy to the frontline I would suggest an accuracy penalty for a 2AP snapshot. If there would be no penalty, then there is no reason to get close. The normal ‘snapshot’ aim (no free aim) is in my experience not that bad, especially with burst weapons the difference to free aim is pretty low.

On the other side without penalty:
Where is the deal, when a heavy gun is able to deal substantial damage for 2 AP without going really close?
This would only make other armor with accuracy buffs again more interesting and the whole thing of the heavy armor is still questionable. I assume a Heavy with this skill and wearing no heavy armor would outperform an Assault with AR on midrange easily, even when he can only shot once per turn for 2 AP and without using free aim.

Not in my experience …
The heavy weapons are not as inaccurate as shotguns, Tyr-1 has a range of 20, Hel II 17 and Deceptor 14 and it is not necessary to hit single body parts with low armor. I use the Tyr-1 in ranges up to 8-12 tiles and I got mostly good hits. At this range bashing is mostly not a real alternative, it is simply to far to move and bash. Also at this range the heavy armor is good enough to protect against some hits from explosives, shotguns, ARs and MGs (except maybe the Arthron upgrade to 6x50 damage, this is IMO still to much).

I had another idea in one of the other threads and I would bring it back here:
I would like it to have the ability to jump and shot in one turn. This ability, let’s call it “Jump’n’Shot” should cost all 4 AP plus 4-5 WP, is only usable once per turn (not abusable with 2 Onslaughts from assisting Assaults) and should have substantional accuracy penalty, I would say -50%.

In ranges above 10 tiles the 30% accuracy buff for shotguns is in my expierience not really enough to make them usable, the chance to hit weak body parts is still pretty low. Heavy weapons are different because it is not necessary to hit single body parts, just hit somewhere is mostly good enough.
But as I said above, I would prefer to increase this distance up to 15 or even 20 instead of excluding whole weapon types. Then it would be a real Sniper skill and mostly not really useful for shotguns and rarely for heavy weapons.

2 Likes

To make it easier to understand, try to describe it with a “Action movie script”. (@MadSkunky, I can hardly imagine it. Maybe, Shot’n’Jump?)

I really like the idea of the Skill, especially for Jetjump, as a special Heavy equipment.
quick ideas:

  • Jump-Kick (Battletech)
  • Jet-Ram (horizontally)
  • Jump + Battle Cry (War Cry - hit area 3 tiles)
  • Jump and “Run?”
  • Fast / Small Jump
  • Jump+Jump / ExtraJump
  • Ejection (to a random point close to Evak)
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Something like this(?):

  1. After selecting this ability the UI switches to same ‘Dots’ to select a goal to jump. The same as when using the normal Jump Jet.
  2. Right after the landing it switches to the ‘Aiming’-UI to aim at a target.
    2.1 If one exits this Aiming-UI then the AP are lost OR
    2.2 If one exits this Aiming-UI then he can aim again, but nothing else, no move, no other ability etc
  3. Shoot as usual

I see it as a Top-Down Bombing, but I don’t even want to know how to do it :smile:

add:
@MadSkunky, If you combine “positioning” and “action reservation”, then you can - Jump + Reserve1AP = getting Position, gives on Next Turn - “preferential shots”.

That would be pretty cool, shooting on the fly, right before landing.

Maybe selecting a landing point and direct afterwards a target that is in the range of this point (2-click-action) and then just animate the rest. To describe something like this seems to be easier than to implement. :wink:

Thank You! :slight_smile:
I do not want start hassle here, so let the arguments speak, not a personal ego!

With of all of these calculations, the point is, how that it works in the practice;

While my playing I founded more interesting soldier’s builds; with the multiclass, there are some interesting options like Sniper with the assaults’s “Return fire” skill for example, and Heavy/Sniper multiclass armed with Sniper rifle and heavy skill “Rage burst” looks like a “Ultimate Combo in game”

Sniper and Assault both work perfectly as the monoclass with their basic “roles”, but with with Heavy is bit complicated
Heavy monoclass can be effective grenadier with “Boom blast” skill, jump with jetpack in to enemies and use melee dash attack pump by the Brawler skill(1AP) and debuff with the War cry skill, which is very effective

As a strategy player, I decided to make my Heavy soldier a “tank” - armed with heavy weapons, protected by Heavy armor, and be offensive damage dealer on the “frontline”;
the current game design does not allow me to do it - it forces me to get multiclass, I need “Dash” skill from Assault, or “Quick aim” skill from Sniper

I really experimented with basic gear - full heavy armor and use “TYR-1 Autocannon” (3AP), a default phoenix heavy weapon…

1/ Heavy armor with its aim penalties makes this certain weapon almost useless in offense, soldier needs to get very close to enemy
But the solution is simple and easy - get a sniper helmet and assault legs armor to eliminate penalty, but I decided to full protection with heavy armor, so this is unnecessary pressure onto the player to change a armor,

2/ To effective shot from TYR-1 (3AP), with heavy armor penalties, a soldier must get in to right position, which costs AP, so it is better to use a shotgun (2AP), or use TYR-1 for melee punch (1AP) pumped by Brawler skill.
So here i would like to notice, that is more effective to use 3x Bash (3AP) than shot from TYR-1 (3AP) - and I have save file to demonstrate it

soldier with Sniper rifle (3AP) does not have these problems, because doe not not need to move a lot
unnecessary pressure onto the player…

So that is problem with Heavy monoclass from my view.


Anyway I like your “stability stance” skill idea!

ps: sorry for late reply , I needed to consolidate my points

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