[BB5] Tactical combat feedback & soldiers' classes revamp

Hello all

I’d I’d like to share my findings about tactical depth of Phoenix Point, and related to that classes and skills, lastly to propose few ideas how to improve the situation.

TACTICAL COMBAT DEPTH AND TOO MAGICAL AND SPAMMABLE ABILITIES
Sadly, this part, since certain point of the game, is very shallow - mostly due to spammable abilities like Dash, but also very small maps with dozens of enemies. What’s even worse, and requires separate addressing, is that other play styles are rather not relevant when you face 15+ sniper Tritons with Pain Chameleon mutation - good luck with trying to approach them other way than Dashing like madman, and killing enough of them 1st turn to make others panic. Well, perhaps hiding all squad in a vehicle might work, but I don’t have one so far to test that.

Situation was much better at the early game, when I had soldiers just lv1-3, with not developed Will so I could not spam the abilities - the game was much more tactical.

Another issue is fumbling - very RNG based, why on Earth an Assault soldier can’t shoot say Grenade Launcher? Is trigger of it so different that without proficiency it can’t be used properly?
This needs to be dropped, but instead introduce penalties to accuracy/range for jump jets.

Next, grenade throw range, simply too low. Should be increased 100%.

And the last, that abilities, especially in current form, are too much fantasy/magical, like spells with mana - can someone explain why, out of nowhere, a soldier can make target take 50% more damage?? That’s not fitting to XCOM-like game.
Moreover, random abilities like +X% aim/+X% damage with a weapon type should be replaced, as usually they don’t fit for the soldier, and also make not much sense.

SOLUTION
Putting aside sniper Tritons squads issue, soldiers’ abilities should be redesigned. The most important change - all of them may be used just once per turn, and some of them for free, with optional either an enhanced version which costs Will, or a passive effect. Also, soldier classes should be revamped.

Here are my propositions - I’ve added 8th lv for all classes, and tried to make them strong on their own, as well as with combination with each other.

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Heavy Class
In-game heavy suffers from very low accuracy for direct fire weapons, and lack of mobility. In my revamp I’ve addressed these flaws. Don’t look at exact numbers, these might be balanced only after few tests in game

  1. Heavy Weapon Handling
  • passive: Increase accuracy of heavy and mounted weapons by 100% in the soldier has not moved this turn. If the soldier stands near something which can be used as support for the weapon accuracy increased by additional 50%.
  • [will cost], activated: Heavy/mounted weapon shoot and overwatch costs is decreased by 1(up to 1 minimum) till the end of turn. This works when soldier moved.
  1. Jump Jets Mastery
  • passive: JJ range is increased by 25%
  • [will cost], activated: You may perform one attack for free after jump.
  1. New Class

  2. Juggernaut

  • activated: The soldier can bash through wooden and tin walls, as well as various derbis - so he/she can move just like there were no such obstacles. Requires equipped full heavy armor set.
  • [will cost], activated: The soldier charges in straight line dealing melee damage to each target it collided with. Damage depends of total encumbrance weight. It still can bash through objects.
  1. Exploiting Weak Spots
  • passive: Each hit with heavy/mounted/(sniper/turret as well?) weapon shreds 10 armor from hit location.
  • [will cost], activated: All shoots with heavy/mounted/(sniper/turret as well?) weapons reduce enemy armor in the hit location by 50% (this happens before passive effect)
  1. Rage Burst
  • passive: Whenever you empty magazine reload the weapon automatically for free
  • activated: Shot with proficient direct projectile weapon, using all remaining ammo in the weapon’s magazine (until the enemy is alive), or shot with non-direct projectile weapon 3 times.
  1. No Man’s Land
  • passive: Trigger overwatch shots for each movement, not only the 1st one.
  • [will cost], activated: Shoot with proficient direct projectile weapon once at each enemy in sight range.

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Technician
The one in game has not enough offensive potential. While revamping I focused on using his unique feature like Robotic Arms to the maximum. And again, treat numeric values rather like placeholders.

  1. Field Medic
  • passive: Action Point cost of medikits/stimpacks, and Robotic Arms is reduced by 1 (1 AP minimum)
  • [will cost], activated: Until end of turn your healing actions heal 50% more health.
  1. Field Surgeon
  • passive: At the end of enemy turn heal yourself up to 100 HP total. Requires Robotic Arms.
  • [will cost], activated: restore 20 health and 10 armor to all body parts of selected target. Disabled body parts are restored. Removes attached Mindfraggers. Requires Robotic Arms.
  1. New Class

  2. Advanced Manipulation System

  • passive: Whenever you attack an enemy in melee range your Robotic Arms perform a free attack on that enemy.
  • [will cost], activated: This turn you can climb walls up, however you have to end move on a floor/ground. Requires equipped Robotic Arms.
  1. Combat Enhancement
  • [will cost], activated: Use Robotic Arms as stabilizer support for next attack, increasing proficient ranged weapon accuracy by 25%
  • [will cost], activated: Use Robotic Arms to throw hand grenade twice far as normally.
  1. Turret Deployment
  • passive: you can deploy up to two turrets simultaneously.(this would require some mechanic to set layout for the turrets - side by side, or one after another)
  • [will cost], activated: Turrets can be thrown like grenades and deployed for 1 Action Point.
  1. Turrets Control:
  • passive: You can manually aim your turrets.
  • [will cost], activated: perform an direct attack on an enemy, all turrets deployed by the attacking soldier whose can shoot at that enemy attack it too.

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Berserker
This soldier class is meant to be melee fighter, so I focused on that aspect, while keeping in mind usefulness to combine with other classes.

  1. Bonecrusher
  • passive: When attacking with proficient weapons you disable body part after lowering its health points to half of maximum amount.
  • [will cost], activated: Your next melee attack will shred 50 armor.
  1. Close Quarters
  • passive: Damage from attacks within 10 tiles is reduced by 25%
  • [will cost], activated: Additional 25% damage reduction till beginning of your next turn.
  1. New Class

  2. Bloodlust

  • passive: Melee damage and speed are increased by percentage difference between soldier’s current and maximum life.
  • [will cost], activated: Hurt yourself for 50 damage to increase speed by 6 for 2 turns.
  1. Terrifying Presence
  • passive: When you kill an enemy all enemies whose witnessed companion’s death lose additional 3 Will.
  • [will cost], activated: Berserker howls, terrifying nearby(10 tiles range?) enemies whose lose 6 Will, and have their AP reduced by 2 during their next turn.
  1. Battle Frenzy
  • passive: Disabled body parts remain functional. Cannot panic or be mind controlled.
  • [will cost], activated: All abilities costs 1 Action Point until end of turn.
  1. Ruthless Killer
  • passive: If an enemy enters, leaves, or preforms an attack within your melee range attack him first with melee weapon.
  • [will cost], activated: Attack an enemy twice with melee weapon.

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Assault
This class in game is more or less fine, except magical-like skills like Rapid Clearance and Rally the Troops.

  1. Dash
  • activated: Move to a target position at up to 50% of maximum movement range
  • [will cost], activated: Move to a target position at up to 75% of maximum movement range
  1. Assault Combat Training:
  • passive: Shot back at an enemy that attacks an ally within perception range. Not applicable for mounted or explosive weapons.
  • [will cost], activated: Enemy overwatch shots have 75% less accuracy against you this turn.
  1. New Class

  2. Ready for Action:

  • passive: Inventory actions and reloading weapons does not cost any Action Points.
  • [will cost], activated: The next grenade toss this turn does not cost any Action Points, but throw range is reduced by 25%.
  1. Rapid Assault
  • passive: You may overwatch for free if you’ve spent your last Action Points for movement.
  • [will cost], activated: Shoot suppression burst at an enemy, it has 50% reduced aim till beginning of your next turn.
  1. Run and gun
  • passive: If you moved at least [10 OR 15?] tiles this turn ranged weapon attacks cost 1 less Action Point until end of turn.
  • [will cost], activated: You shoot twice with direct projectile weapon at the same enemy, without manual aiming.
  1. Tactical Teamwork
  • passive: Your chosen team mate attacks the same target when you do if he/she has it in sight range. Does not work with overwatch shots.
  • [will cost], activated: Team up with another Assault class soldier until end of turn. A soldier may be chosen as team mate only once per turn.

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Sniper
In-game sniper lacks a bit of power, mostly due to high cost of sniper rifle shot. In my revamp I focused on giving him cheaper shots if he didn’t moved (so he could prepare firing position). I also wanted to support 2 different playstyles for sniper - one for long-range sniper sitting somewhere on a distant tower, other advancing in close proximity after main assault forces.

  1. Extreme Focus
  • passive: Overwatch cost is reduced by 1 Action Point.
  • [will cost], activated: Next ranged proficient weapon attack has 50% increased accuracy.
  1. Quick Aim Adjustment
  • passive: Each next proficient ranged weapon attack against the same enemy has 15% increased accuracy this turn. Attacking other enemy resets this bonus.
  • [will cost], activated: The AP cost of next shot with a proficient weapon is reduced by 1 (down to 0%).
  1. New Class

  2. Keen Senses

  • passive: +50% Perception.
  • [will cost], activated: Enter into special overwatch type in which you have manual aim control over the soldier.
  1. Sniper Firing Nest
  • passive: If you haven’t moved this turn using proficient ranged weapons shots costs 1 less Action Point.
  • activated: You gain +25% Stealth until you make a movement. Doesn’t stack.
  1. Gunslinger
  • passive: The 1st pistol shot in a turn does not cost any Action Points.
  • [will cost, pistol shot AP cost], activated: Shoot 3 times with your pistol.
  1. Devastating Wounds
  • passive: Disabling a body part also removes that body part’s armor.
    OR
  • passive: Head shot deals double damage.
  • [will cost], activated: Until end of turn whenever you cause an enemy to bleed, the bleed amount is quadrupled.

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That’s all for now, I’m working on revamp of infiltrator and priest classes - if you’ll like the above I’ll continue my pondering.

How do you find the changes for classes mates?

3 Likes

Looks like a digest of all suggestions for last couple of months, at least at least in volume.

2 Likes

This would make heavy weapons absolute OP if you don’t wear heavy armor and instead light with accuracy bonus!
NO WAY!

Also heavy weapons still shred armor, and some other weapons pierce armor. Really no need for it.

Some ideas are ok, some are just copy&paste from X-COM, sorry please don’t copy it!

overall nice ideas except:

What you mean by that? We can throw weapons? Or you mean grenades? If so then grenade range is perfect. You want it better then take one of perks - Grenade Proficiency or Expert Thrower, or increase Strength of a soldier.

I would only say - decrease heavy armor penalty and they will start hitting enemies. :wink: There is already penalty if soldier has no proficiency with heavy weapon.

Too powerful. 6 hits with any weapon would completely negate enemy armor. That would allow for an alien queen kill with submachine gun. :slight_smile: Even if descreased by half i’m not sure if such feature should be allowed by skill. It should be weapon based.

You imagine heavy performing such feat with machine gun at 10 enemies? :smiley: “Hey! Hold there for a moment. I must shoot you with exactly one bullet and then skip for your friend” :slight_smile: This skill is also magic which you oppose to.

I will comment other classes later.

1 Like

Yeah, a mistake here, I meant grenades.

That also would be nice, but by this skill I wanted to reproduce the preparation of the heavy weapon dedicated shooting nest.

And it is restricted only to heavy/mounted, and perhaps sniper/turrets. Again, numeric values are not set in stone here, it’s just a draft. I totally agree allowing this for any weapon type would make ridiculous outputs, like total shred of Queen’s armor just by pistol shots.

Well, enemies move sequentially, so the overwatch is triggered once per movement with this ability. Active part allows to shoot at each enemy in sight, without manual aiming - where is magic in that?

Thanks for the feedback mates.

Still too powerful. As Ryu said heavy weapons already shred armor.

Technician after balancing could be fine. :slight_smile:

reduce that amount and I am fine.

I would generally decrease amount of WP lost by enemies and here is a boost, so this is a “no” for me.

Reduce all actions cost by 1 AP with 1 AP as minimum then why not.

ok with below limitation, otherwise too powerful

it could be passive and more like 25% increase

Otherwise quite fine. I would prefer to play your version that one available in BB5 (except heavy I think).

I was pondering about change the Exploiting Weak Spots ability, and got something like:
Exploiting Weak Spots

  • passive: Your shots pierce 10?15? armor.
  • [will cost], activated: You shred 5 armor from hit location with your shots until end of turn
    OR
  • You have additional 5?10? armor piercing until end of turn.

How about such change?

Battle Frenzy activated part should cost 1 AP looks reasonable.

What about to realize weak spots directly into mechanics, if we already have realistic aiming model? I prefer to have partially armored aliens with something like small sized joints and vulnerable sensory organs, on which damage can be applied directly without armor. This solves several issues at once, for example:

  • Adds an objective sense to continuously increase the accuracy of snipers by advanced items.
  • Performs the function of a critical hit when firing bursts (we need no statistical crits, but this would be very believable)
  • Adds sense to move and take a favorable position (snipers on top, assaults as closer as possible)
  • Relieves abstract abilities such as weaknesses and gives strength to objective abilities such as aimed shot (a matter of taste).
  • and most importantly - it gives incredible opportunities for design variability of different types of armor - changing armor will not only be aesthetically pleasing, but also functional. What about fully covered front with opened back? Perfect reason for using diversions!
    Also it’s already partially realized by Arthrons shields , and aiming in agile legs, but why not to use this mechanics more effectively?
2 Likes

Very good suggestion - you need to make that its own thread.

Thanks! But I’m afraid if it wasn’t already realized (I hope it was, because it looks pretty obvious), then now is too late, same as for most of any suggestions here. You know, new alien models, rebalancing, instead of bug fixing, another developing priorities etc…

Totally agree with this. At the moment, it’s like you’re controlling a squad of wizards.

Why do you think this? - Personally, I already feel that grenades are too good, I wish they had the chance to be less than 100% accurate.

That sounds like an idea for Phoenix Point 2. :wink: Snapshot would now need to change all enemy and armor models. :slight_smile:

1 Like

I am flattered and disappointed at the same time. I mean, of course, my ego is dancing because you are the most respected expert here, but are you really sure that the developers did not mention this in advance? I am ready to skip all my ideas if they will be implemented in the December release, as if they were invented by the developers in advance, and I only guessed about their most obvious but hidden plans (you know this sweet narcissism about ‘ah, I guessed in advance!’ - enough for me). But to the same extent, I will be paradoxically disappointed if these simple things turn out to be my unique invention for the second part :frowning:

Oh, I’m definitely not an expert about PP and I don’t follow all sources of information as for example Retcon Raider is doing. :slight_smile: But I’m pretty sure they didin’t mention anything like so much fracrured body hit parts. I was hoping that human armor for arms will be separated from torso, but it looks like it won’t change now.

A very nice summary as I see it. Just a few humble notes:
I think a throw range (not just grenade, if u want to throw a weapon to another soldier, don’t see any problem with that, to save movement points, or above the wall) should increase with strength, while accuracy remains independent.
50% more damage might be a critical hit, but should not be triggered by will power ability.
Abilities usage once per turn - well its kinda problematic when u have only 6 men versus 30+ .

@Yokes and others
An update - revamped sniper class.

Wanted to reply that I don’t have time to think about it, but since you managed to catch my attention earlier then I read it. Again more interesting than current skills. :slight_smile: Feedback:

I don’t like any skill that reduces ‘time cost’ of attacks to 0. It creates then ‘additional time line’ for such soldier. Reduce it to 0.5 AP, but don’t create physical activities that don’t cost time. Otherwise it is magic. :slight_smile:

I don’t like idea of overwatch being too powerful. Currently it is stronger for all single shot weapons than burst weapons, so sniper has it better than assault for example. Giving player control in enemy turn is definitely step in direction I wouldn’t follow.

Now positive feedback :smiley: I like it! (if you introduce at least 0.5 AP cost for such actions, for example for handguns)

First passive is overpowered. I like second alternative more.

Another idea for more tactical gameplay:

Sniper:
How about a skill that allows to use a laser marker on a target.
Cost 2AP

Heavy:
Fire your rocket at selected marker at 100% increased range. Cost 3 AP
Should only work with mounted rocket systems like fury and vehicles.

Why you want to increase range with laser marker? I would understand increase in accuracy, but range?

Guided missle, the soldier don’t have to aim and there is no accuracy for it atm.