I like heavy weapons, mostly miniguns. I like to use them but I saw a problem about this. They are slow…
Heavy soldiers with heavy weapons got all the penalties but not got good points rather then a bit more armor. In this game, everything is about accuracy and speed. You need to be fast and you need to hit. Your assaults are best for this reason. Just give them laser rifles and they can nearly snipe anyones head. Snipers with lasers are just point shooters and they have nice speed skills. But heavies?
I am talking about pure builds here. A heavy is slow, heavy guns are slow to fire and heavy armor is bad for speed and accuracy. Because of the bad acc, you need to get near, but you are so slow. You got armor but if you go near enemies, that armor won’t save you much because you can’t kill them fast enough as you are slow.
So as I played, I do not see a reason to have a heavy class. I will try to have a sniper mix just for the fast firing and probably give more weaker armor for speed and acc. So there is nothing left rather then few skills to use and heavy weapon profession. Even so, an assault with a laser rifle is much more usable rather then this.
Even I can go short range with an heavy to use a minigun, why would I not use a shotgun?
I did not play so long so maybe I missed something about this but still, as we talk all together, you can have an assault and a sniper as pure build for best results but not the heavy.
Please tell me some way to able to use those heavies at front lines enough fast. Thx!
This is the problem, get them position with rocket 1 turn, shoot grenade 1 turn, get near the enemy 1 turn, shoot enemy 1 turn… my assault could done all of this in 1-2 turn without needing a grenade launch. I am using grenade launcher too but then It’s like having a stable howitzer in your party.
Yeah, I’ve found the machine guns to be basically useless. Damage is pitiful unless you get up to touch range, and by then you might as well just use a shotgun instead.
The Hel cannon, though, can be pretty good. The key is to make your heavy have as many accuracy buffs as possible - Strongman skill, Cautious skill, replace the heavy helmet with a sniper helmet, replace the legs with assault or sniper gear. At that point you can hit targets at medium range fairly consistently.
Otherwise, as mentioned, just use the grenade launcher. A heavy with Boom Blast can drop two grenades and a rocket on a group of enemies halfway across the map on turn 1 without even moving. That makes them worth bringing along on your team.
I’m not sure how you’re using your heavy with the machine gun, but with the strongman skill (as you mentioned) and a few accuracy boosting armor’s equipped the deceptor will one shot most mob units (Triton’s, Arthrons, humanoid targets) in the game at medium range & will either severely cripple siren’s/chiron’s or expose them enough with the shredding done for a finishing blow.
Not to mention now with this update that rage burst with the hel cannon is pretty useless now in my experience, however with the deceptor it still make pretty decent use of the ability.
For me the hel II cannon is an all or nothing weapon, you hit and it’s amazing!! you miss and it’s a big 3 AP wiff and oh boy does it hurt! The deceptor will usually hit at least a half burst which is still quite a solid amount of damage.
If you’re having problem’s with a heavy’s “speed” then perhaps you’re not using them correctly?? how are you approaching enemies with heavy armor on?? running at them? inching your way forwards?? if either of these are the case I can see why you might be having trouble with speed…
Here’s what I do, Heavy’s utility & maneuverability comes from there jump jet’s to help close the distance. Turn 1 I jump in close range and use war cry to neuter enemies ability to move away / retaliate and next turn I move in for the kill with heavy weapon of choice. I often times in the late game have heavy’s speed maxed out and very often combine there class with an assault to give them the dash ability which is very useful for getting around their lack of speed.
The big reason I like the Hel over the Deceptor/Uragan is the daze effect. If you can land one shot on most targets with the Hel, they’re out of the fight - either they die instantly, or they lose a body part and they’re dazed, and you can finish them off next turn. A machine gun burst will take off HP, but it doesn’t daze, and the wide aiming circle means damage will be spread over the target so they probably won’t lose any limbs. So you still have to shoot them again with someone else to finsh them off. Most combats in PP are over in 1-2 turns so the difference between disabling a target in 1 shot and disabling them in 2 shots is a big one.
Heavy weapons are slow and innacurate, because they are most powerful. You need to plan how to use them, so for example hide your heavy behind obstacles, then get around the corner and unleash hell at close enemy. And you can try to increase accuracy with items and skills.
Heavy soldier is slow in heavy armor because he has good protection. Remove that protection and he will be fast and accurate enough to hit many targets at mid range.
I use Hel II Cannon a lot, and sometimes you prefer bashing 2-3 times, if you have high strength, maybe with two different heavy weapons preventing more damage for that weapon
To be honest there’s a small problem with one of your hints. If you hide your heavy behind an obstacle, then they can’t move far enough to actually hit anything with their preternaturally slow movement (apparently heavy-class weapons reduce your mobility or am I wrong? it seemed so)
I did find them to be most useful with heavy weapons when having a complementary cross-class like sniper or assault.
I agree Julian, Heavy with Sniper (for quick aim) and Assault (for dash) are my preferred builds just in order to make heavy weapons more ‘viable’. Disruptor MG needs some more accuracy or more rounds for its burst - it’s a mini gun not a spurt gun!
The main point I try to say. You need to mix something to able to use your heavy. You need to use different armor, you need to mix with sniper or assault. Or you will have a howitzer with tank armor which nobody shoot him because he is already at back.
For minigun type games, devs always try to make them both slow and bad acc. This is bad mechanic. You need to choose one. Slow or inacc? If you give both penalties, other weapons easly overpowers them. Heavy weapons could be slow because they fire longer then rifles but they are not bad at acc when used someone knows how to use it.
So all the miniguns should get a buf to become usefull so with this, heavy class can be good as it’s own.
I play without cross-classing soldiers. And I mostly use my heavies as guards in my team. First they jump forward to some roof or behind high wall to be 2 tiles from corner of that wall. Then they fire their hel cannons at anything that will come close. And enemies come close. I don’t have to run after them.
It is the armor that is reducing speed. But I have my heavies in heavy armor and they are still able to make these 2 or 3 tiles moves near cover’s corner and fire at anything that dare to come close. They are more deadly than any other class then. Of course you can give them medium armor so they will move 3 to 5 tiles (based on their speed) and be able to fire with better precision, but they will be more vulnerable.
Deceptor I usually leave for things like Chiron, Sentinels, Spawnery or Scylla. Sometimes for Siren when I’m sure that it won’t try to mind control my heavy.
Don’t you see that is a problem?
If a class needs very specific buffs and use of non-class gear to be effective, then that sez something about hos poor it is. Heavy equipment should have that many negatives.
Technically, i’s described as a machinegun. No real gattling guns in this game.
@drages:
Funny thing is, in RL, gattling guns are crazily accurate. Their own real downside is the weight of the ammo and how quickly you run out. That should be modeled in the game. Heavies would have to lug a lot of ammo and not have much room for carrying much else.
And it’s being a stable howitzer. Just stay somewhere and bomb everyone.
Heavy weapons got huge penalties, heavy armors got penalties even they even not save someone from constant fire at a bad position. Skills are mostly to get near enemy but with this, you just can’t jump into the battlefield to use them.
It’s not useless but assault and sniper are very well with their own.
I think the skill system fails here. If that were like X-com 2 with two choices are then need of other class skills It would be better.
Mahineguns should be much easier to use then gattling cannons… so this is worse.
If you ask me, this class needs:
Much more better armor value at heavy armor. So penalties worth it.
Much better aim for big guns/cannons.
Skills for some fast gameplay, movement or shooting like assault and snipers got.
If you want to use it as a bombarder, It’s totally fine but they missed the other way around badly.
The thing about heavy armour in Phoenix Point is that it’s great against about 2/3rds of the weapons in the game (assault rifles, machine guns, shotguns) and completely useless against the last 1/3rd (sniper rifles, piercing weapons).
Trouble is, the last 1/3rd are usually the ones that actually kill you. So if you count on heavy armour to protect you then your soldier ends up shrugging off about 4 attacks in a row then dying instantly to the last 2.
Honestly, the biggest reason to use heavy armour is the jetpack.
Heavy armor is crap in general. Its nice to have more protection, but not at the steep price of accuracy. If heavy’s not hitting anything hes not useful to the team and its not that assaults and snipers are dying left and right.
In real life heavy weapons are just as accurate as others but they need to be set up (running with them in a rifle like manner is not the best idea).
If you needed 2-3Ap in order to set them up before you fire ( and if getting hit by melee would unsetup you) they could rightfully be stronger and more tactical, instead of " run up close and fire"
This is my strategy; I also love using them to punch holes in ceilings and walls to expose vulnerable enemies, which is why I really hope we eventually see improvements in destructible cover.
