Berserkers and melee need fixing

@ Rainer I think it’s safe to say that these godlike combos are not design choices. They are exploits that come from having a skill sandbox where the players are free to mix classes as they want.

For stealth what has been suggested (by @gauthel and me, among others in this thread Let's fix stealth!) is that infiltrator’s stealth should break when firing and require spending WPs and APs to get back into.

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It’s possible that Rainer affirmation is right and dev just didn’t had time to tune the powerful skills and skipped various powerful combo.

Stealth problem is to not have a cap (85% seems fine), and exploit Stealth (100% damages) long range. I have Stealth sniper and it isn’t impressive at all, I think it’s come from not having the Sniper class.

Bloodlust problem is to self inflict injuries and exploit it long range, it’s more efficient than stealth because there isn’t the problem of being detected which is something to manage with a stealth cap at 85%. If the game can’t find any way to ignore self inflicted injuries, Bloodlust should probably be removed.

But saying the game is crap because of a ton of OP tools, that seems go very far. At this point it would be interesting to list the OP tools that can be totally ignored. As far I know the only “OP tool” I used was Rage Burst, and if the final don’t cause me problems, I’ll beat the game. So it’s a clue that all OP tool can be ignored but Rage Burst is still on question.

But I doubt Rage Burst isn’t a deliberate design, it’s possible as it had a previous version. I think there’s eventually a problem with Sniper Rifles, but i wonder why SR have so large clips.

At some point if you perform very well the game is almost constantly scaling up at very high levels, I mean something like Scylla, 2 bombard Chirons, 4 Sirens, 10 Crabs with 50 AR + grenades + poison, and certainly some more Tritons or Crabs (Sniper Triton can be very dangerous). Eventually if OP tools lead you there is it still easy at this scaling? If not, wasn’t this the goal of the design? And I don’t even mention the armor scaling up that require additional management.

It’s suspicious some players (not one) argue it’s easier at Legendary than Easy, that’s perhaps a part of the problem.

From my play and few let’s play, it’s clear that the game has some special setup that can lead to include easy combats along a campaign, but if a few are very hard, could be those that are the real target of the design, and “OP tools” are designed so you can beat them anyway.

That the game can be easy in some parts is plain obvious, that it is all along let me skeptical, I’d say let’s play please, and this would be welcome there’s too few. And nope a video just showing a combat show nothing.

I think it’s got a lot to do with the mindset of the player - If you’re playing on Legendary then you’re expecting to take loses and will probably play honestman at very least, in that case DDA appears to be working as intended, it’ll give you a relatively balanced game based on how well you’re playing. Whereas if you’re playing on Easy then it’s more it’s more likely that you’re trying to play a perfect game and, with that, save scumming; that’s where DDA is going to eventually kick your ass because it measures you as finding the game too easy if you keep having those perfect results.

I already read the explanation, it isn’t valid from what I saw for Normal versus Legendary, not a proof but a clue. 3 dead soldiers in first Month Normal generating quite higher enemy opposition up to Scylla in Haven defense versus Legendary 1 soldier death with a Scylla still to be seen. If death matter during first month it’s not the stronger parameter.

Past first parts perhaps except that skyrocketing difficulty at Normal or Easy appears during first month, and that’s currently the major problem. Later there’s multiple parameters that help an easier difficulty level, but it’s first parts the big problem.

Just in case someone is interested. I just made a feature request for a new Ability on the feadback tool:
It should make life easier for berserkers (of course when you don’t go for the OP stuff)

Ability description:

Ability: Charge
Description: Move to a target in melee range and bash it.
Restriction: target must be in 3 tiles
Cost: 2WP/1AP
Assumption: Melee weapons will become 1AP

How it would work:

  1. We would click on the ability
  2. The available tiles would turn red on the floor to show where it is possible to go (within 3 tiles)
  3. We would select one of the tiles. If you are familiar with the “fleche” ability that rangers have in XCOM2 for sword attack you see how we would select the target if there are multiple available for the chosen tile. Depending where your cursor is in the tile, an arrow shows the target (and it’s highlighted).
  4. Once selected, the soldier moves to the tile and …
    a. do a melee attack if he’s holding a melee weapon
    b. bash for other types of weapon


Often, a berserker is very few tiles short of doing an attack. This would give the little push necessary (sort of mini-dash).

In which tree:

This ability could be a custom one (hope for luck) or linked either to heavy or berserker who would benefit the most from a melee perk.

I like the idea of a “charge” (move + melee) ability. I think it is very much fits Berserker theme.
However I would like it to have some more interesting effects as well (to be discussed):

  • Damage to target’s armour
  • Damage to target’s WP
  • Additional damage to HP based on the distance crossed after activating Charge
  • Attacker’s HP cost at activating the ability (thus activating Bloodlust and increasing damage)

Not all of these at once obviously, this is just something to start the discussion))

Charges usually involve longer distance, 3 tiles looks like an OP hole paranoia. :slight_smile:

But yeah a charge, not sure it would make playable melee but worth a check.

Free Armor break/shredding with a charge, looks interesting.

oh just make all melee weapons 1 ap single use, just like mounted weapons, if you want to hit more than once you can have multiple melee weapons in ready slots and go for some roronoa zoro dual-triple sword wielding action, also they could even go as far as to change 3d model to hold two one-handed weapons in each hand

Well, I wrote in the feedback that I assumed melee would become 1AP to be same price as bash. Of course, that would probably mean that damage would go down.

I thought about additional damage but discarded it to avoid making it too good.
Damage depending on distance could lead to players voluntarily moving 3 tiles away to make a bigger blow.

I arbitrarily chose this because it seemed already far enough. It’s just a small push to help get in melee range. 5 would probably better help to chain those Adrenaline Rush kills (if melee stays 2AP).
But lots of movement for no AP is not my cup of tea. There it is really to close a gap.

Imagine attacking a unite with return fire. For each 1 ap worth of damage you are going to recieve a MG burst in your face!
I like the idea of most of the weapons having 1 AP cost very much and I voted for it! But I would like to have some heavy-hitters able to instantly disable a target in one hit by tearing off a limb or shocking it! That’s what Marduk’s Fist is currently good for))
Those weapons with 2 (or more) AP cost would also benefit from Adrenaline Rush =)

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Exactly, going down to 1AP would certainly mean lower the damage. It would be good to have both types though. Some using only 1AP when damage proves to be enough or you don’t risk return fire, and those with 2AP that do lots of damage and benefit from Adrenaline Rush.
But bash can already be quite good, so 1AP melee weapons would have to apply an effect to be valuable enough.

I think my general expectation would be that a one handed melee weapon might cost 1AP to use, and a two handed weapon would cost 2AP.

Currently all close range are one hand, it’s a game choice to give them some more use, I think it shouldn’t be changed. But that there’s more powerful close range and less powerful close range is another aspect.

Melee skills can be ignored because ranged weapon and abilities are much more effective. Not only that, synergies abilities are better balanced for ranged attacks than melee. Who wants to risk being right next to the opponent and dying than to have all the options to kill at least one from a distance. Melee need more love. Please rebalance all melee combat skills.

By the way, you may want to visit Canny and pull this up:

I’ve got a proposal on the feedback site to make it dangerous to fire into melee and limiting the weapons that may be used when in base contact. One of the reasons melee is so disadvantageous is that it leaves you hanging out there to get mowed down. If there were a serious risk of hitting the wrong participant in a melee, then melee would finally be separated sufficiently from ranged combat. Limiting weapons that can be used (pistol, melee weapons, bash, and shotgun) makes the melee specialists actually special.

Totally agree. There are so many ways for devs to make berserker “melee” class better. Weapons, like fists in Wolverine (claws) which build counters based on AP points left or what ever. Even life leeching will be awesome. Abilities that scale up to “Blood DPS rage” at short distance to increase survivability or build aggro.

I don’t remind a tactical shooter with developed close range. In Ultimate Space Commando they get a very special role by having a high defense, which can be increased by AP not used, and a counter price is each attack even dodged or absorbed still lower a bit morale. But they can switch weapon for price of some ap, and I don’t remind much cases with close range attacks.

Otherwise I don’t remind.

That means there is a room for something new. :slight_smile: I’ve never played Ultimate Space Commando.
Btw. I don’t expect any groundbreaking changes but any positive change will be better for the class than it is now.