Berserkers and melee need fixing

But not in range of 10 tiles?

I mean that all 3, overwatch, return fire, and melee riposte are disabled against a bezerker with these skills.
One of the main problems with melee is that you leave yourself wide open to return fire from crabmen with machine guns if you don’t kill or daze them - I think bezerkers should get a skill that shuts this down.
I also think that the damage buffs should apply to all the mutation augments, including damage from daze and paralysis.
If devs want bezerkers to be used as intended - i.e. melee - then these are things they could do.
Smoke and stun grenades would also help bezerkers to close the distance.

Overall good ideas. I would change few things.

  • Melee AP cost to 25% always, not only for Berserker with activated ability.
  • So level 2 skill I would change to grant that 50% melee damage bonus and stun damage equal to that increased damage.
  • Level 3 I would completely change - remove that 25% less damage resistance (such protection should be granted by some special armor, not passive skill - I’m not sure if I would leave that bonus anywhere). Ignores ovewatch is too unrealistic, berserker doesn’t go into shadow plane to go past enemy defences. But what I would give here is passive engagement of enemy, so enemy starts turn with only 3 AP when adjacent to berserker and can’t use most of the weapons except melee, bash, handguns and maybe shotguns (also applies to most aliens attacks, but many of them have melee so berserker still can be screwed). Also any enemy movement (entering, leaving, moving inside) in tiles adjacent to berserker provokes 1 attack of opportunity in enemy turn if he is equipped with melee weapon.
  • Level 6 I would change to be activated ability to grant mind control immunity for like 2 or 3 turns. Immunity to panic I would include in level 1 berserker training - that should be their main trait that they don’t panic. And also disabled body parts should function only during that special time when Ignore Pain is active. When it ends all disabled body parts stop to give functions. Current passive immunity is so powerful that even Scylla compared to such berserker is a little bug squicking because of disabled leg or arm. :slight_smile:

@Yokes

OK, I’ve considered what you wrote, thanks for the input, and I think perhaps these are what the skills should be:

Level 1 – Bezerker training – proficiency with handguns and melee weapons - all melee attacks with bezerker class cost 1 AP, including melee mutations

Level 2 – Mighty strike – will point ability (3WP), one use per turn – for rest of turn, all melee attacks do +50% damage and can cause stun (10 SP)

Level 3 – Close quarters combatant – enemies can’t use ranged attacks against an adjacent bezerker, bezerker gains melee riposte, any units moving away from an adjacent bezerker get melee attacked (20 SP)

Level 4 – new class (50 SP)

Level 5 – Bloodlust – gain +10% melee damage and speed bonus for each enemy killed by the bezerker that mission up to +50% (15 SP)

Level 6 – Ignore Pain – immune to panic, activated ability once per turn (2 WP) - until next turn, bezerker is immune to mind control and disabled limbs become functional (20 SP)

Level 7 – Adrenaline rush – will point ability (4WP) – one use per turn, recover 2 action points, melee attacks gain shred 20 (30 SP)

I personally don’t think melee weapons should be 1 AP for all classes, I think melee should be the bezerkers thing. Or it should be linked to proficiency - proficiency with melee means it’s 1AP to use but no proficiency means it’s 2 AP.

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Maybe you are right. :slight_smile:

EDIT: Ha! Just checked my notes. Soldiers not proficient with melee would attack 50% times slower. But still I listed 1 AP as base value for proficient unit. :slight_smile: So in current game terms it can be 2 AP for non proficient units. Good thinking out there sir!

Nice ideas, especially that the “Beserker” gets a “real” advantage with meele weapons.
Before implementing all of these good ideas, several other things need to be changed.

Have you already looked at @VOLAND’s guide on “alpha killers”? It is definitely worth a look!
Just a small extract with meele weapons.

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Level 2 and level 5 skills grant us new terminator build. With heavy skill we got +100% melee damage, then +50% after killing 5 enemies and with two personal skill another +50%. Now we have +200% melee damage which mean 480 alpha damage for 1AP.
With only +100% to melee my one soldier complete missions in 1 turn on legend.

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I don’t know if you had a chance to play with the DLC, and try out the bionic melee torso (allowing melee attacks for 1AP). It’s absolutely OP on an assault/heavy. I put it on a sniper/heavy to keep it from breaking my game (to get the 50% damage bonus, but no dash, or rapid clearance). And even so it was devastating (for the record, she had the melee third row damage buff, but no Reckless).

Melee weapons have very high damage per hit (even without buffs), so they can punch through any armor, which makes them good for both crowd control and big monster hunting… Of course, the disadvantage of having to usually spend at least 3 APs to use them (one to close the distance, 2 to strike) normally makes their use suboptimal. However, lower the AP cost to 1 and you go to the other extreme.

Add this and the serker class would be easily the most OP in the game:

This last one paired with Rapid Clearance would be a safety net for closing loops. The shredding though would be unnecessary, because of the high damage per hit.

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Oh yes. But proposing such skills doesn’t mean that there won’t be other changes. They are to make berserker usable without multiclassing. Skills proposed by David don’t allow for killing loop and wiping out enemies in one turn. You just mix them with ovepowered skills from other classes and perks.

And to be true melee should go to some extremes, as you need to risk your own soldier and close the distance to the enemies.

Of course those proposed skills are not perfect, but definitely look better than current Berserker skills.

This game live and die with the multiclass system.
On the one hand many interesting builds and on the other hand many broken combinations. So multiclass must always be in the back of your mind when making any adjustments.
I also don’t like proposed Lvl. 7 skill at all.
Such skills that regenerate APs break game balancing!

Yes, if you can no longer blow away your opponents with one shot. Then the high risk of moving into the direct neighborhood should also be particularly rewarded.
According to the current state of the game (extreme mobility) it would simply be an alpha terminator build.

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Guys you take this proposal without context. Currently proposing anything still leads to extreme builds if you multiclass with assault/sniper/heavy. Even if above skills would grant +1% to anything and some resistances it would still allow to build terminator unit because there are skills on other classes which are just too strong. But Berserker alone would be unplayable. You need to have in mind that other classes would be also nerfed, but this is not the topic to touch other classes.

Actually, in this case I’m assuming that there will be sweeping changes:

mobility/accuracy/damage buffs will be reduced across the board, dash and quick aim will be limited to once per turn, and rally the troops to once per turn per squad. Only Rapid Clearance stays as is (because with those changes it would cease to be a problem).

Those changes would take care of all the alpha-strike killer builds that I can imagine, except the ones based around 1AP melee attacks.

This proposal IS without any context. And by it’s own with current mechanics it bring the most OP build to game ever. Dreams about nerf everything is only in your head and don’t related to this topic.

How about “Rally the Troops” with an effect only within a 10 field radius (or 5?)?
In my opinion, this is also easier for the new players to understand … since they would no longer be surprised why the second soldier cannot perform this skill.

Maybe, though there is the possibility of bunching up the soldiers.

I like the one rally per turn per squad because I have been playing like that for a long time and I know it works.

If I be allowed to dream I would like Rally to be a squad’s leader ability… And for there to be squads that you can name and appoint leader… But that’s a different story :wink:

While I would like to see skills nerfed - the devs haven’t got round to that so the skills I proposed were with the current game in mind - I’m in 2 minds about 1AP melee weapons but I think the main reason why it’s a problem is it allows assaults with rapid clearance to move, attack and recover 2 AP.
I’m suggesting skills that would make the bezerker on par with a high level shotgun assault, which is currently the best for short range.
If the devs get round to nerfing everything then they could nerf these proposed skills as well.
I’m just putting thoughts out there to make a good melee class. The current bezerker is also amazing, but not for melee reasons.

Don’t get me wrong, I also think that serkers need a rework. However, I think because of the AP cost of attacking with melee weapons there is some misunderstanding as to how powerful these weapons actually are.

Take shotgun assault, for example. With dash and quickaim limited to one use per turn, and rally to once per turn per squad, it’s very difficult to maintain a rapid clearance loop, because shotguns are CQC weapons and ineffective against strong armor. You need to be really close to target a vulnerable part, if there is one. So you really need 3 APs to make a kill - one to move, 2 to shoot. Which kind of the same as with melee weapons, only shotguns at one tile distance usually deal more damage, unless the target has strong armor all over. However, make melee attack cost 1 AP and everything changes in the opposite direction, and more so with damage buffs.

That’s why my feeling at the moment is that serkers need some once per turn skill that would allow to close distance and strike for 2AP.

I think it is also viable to make some melee weapons cost 1 AP to use. The sword that does 50 bleeding, specifically. Why? Because it doesn’t do enough damage to allow rapid clearance loops, but it’s still useful because the bleeding will probably cause the target die before it can retaliate.

Melee weapons and arguably pistols are very effective against high armor, low HP opponents. Humans, basically. Especially the Pure and the Foresaken. And they are quite slow, so you can ambush them.

You suggest good class for one class system. For multi class system you must think, how it will work with another classes.
Same make devs - they make good classes but without any thoughts how it will work in multi class system.

@VOLAND

Whether it’s 1AP or 2AP for melee weapons, I think the damage per AP should be equivalent to a point blank shotgun blast, which is what they’re competing against - it shouldn’t be higher.
If this involves reducing base damage of melee weapons or reducing the percentage damage boosts of the skills alongside 1AP weapons or have some weapons 1AP and some 2AP then that’s fine with me.
My main aim is to see a melee orientated bezerker class which is as strong as the shotgun assault.
I think all human factions should have access to smoke grenades and flashbangs in the same way they all have access to medkits - smoke grenades definitely make sense for bezerkers that need to close ground with ranged troops. Sonic grenades can be the Synedrion upgrade to flashbangs and I think Anu should get a viral smoke grenade once they’ve researched advanced viral weapons. Smoke should block line of site and impose severe aim penalties if troops are shooting through smoke to represent blind firing.
I don’t like dash much and another skill that’s similar seems unappealing to me.
When I played this game 1st time I used lots of bezerkers as I was buddying with Anu and I just found it was better to cross class them into shotgun assaults, which are very powerful with armour break and adrenaline rush on top of all the assault shenanigans.

@Magor

The multi-class system is where things go into really OP territory, they should heavily nerf skills across the board IMO