I am with you in this, unfortunately bad news from that front
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As I said, those are your 5 most egregious skills… Other skills that are just as commonly complained of: Manual Control, War Cry, Sneak Attack, Mark for Death, Brawler, Inspire, Bloodlust, Mind Control.
Skills that are occasionally complained of: all the rest 
The second problem is how you deal with those skills in terms of SWO, because again, the parameters you want to be able to adjust in relation to them, are your solutions, for example (and I could do this with each of the other skills as well, I merely want to illustrate the problem here):
The problem you see with RC is infinite number of kills, the problem I see with it is you can recover more AP than you spend on the kill. Since we have discussed this to death already, I think we don’t need to expand on why you think what you think, or why I think what I think. Suffice to say that there are different approaches. What should the SWO be there?
IMHO, this is the kind of thing that has to be fixed in the base game, not as a SWO, because the game has to be balanced at least up to a point by the devs. SWO and mods are no excuse for not balancing the game. A person who picks up the game for the first time and starts playing on whatever difficulty preset shouldn’t run into something like, for example, Rapid Clearance + Sneak Attack + Vengeance Torso. The answer to that player shouldn’t be hey, you should have balanced the game to your liking before playing for the first time, next time you will know better.
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I read proposals for SWO and what I see is self restrictions ported to the game, I can set all of those by myself, even if I need a pen and paper for surgeries forcing a PX operative 1 day in medbay.
But the key for me is a real challenge, and without proper AI that is not possible.
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While I agree up to a point, the question I often find myself asking myself nowadays is ‘how would ?? feel?’, where ?? is a player like Omega who has a very different idea to me of what this game should be like.
I don’t want to impose my view of how this game should work on ??, regardless of whether I think the way (s)he wants to play it is broken. TBH, if (s)he wants to jack up the team like you describe and go on an infinite killing spree which requires no thought at all, who am I to stop them?
But I want a game with more challenge than that - and that’s where SWOs can come in. For both you & I (I think), one of the most egregious exploits the fact that certain skills can create infinite AP feedback loops that fuel a Terminator Run. The solution you’ve proposed is more elegant and subtle than mine, but I suspect is harder to program - though I may well be wrong. But you asked me what SWO’s I would like to see - and one of those is the simple and understandable ability for both me and ?? to say: “I do/don’t want my Squaddies to be able to annihilate most things on the map in 1 turn, and these are the parameters I want to play by.”
I want to express it in an analogy, chess
You can write or keep it in your mind, restrictions as you please,
“I will move the pawns only on odd turns”
“I will not castle during the game”
but at the end you play against a newbie without knowledge, without middlegame or endgame strategies, making mistakes across the board, exposing the Queen …
You are looking for the ultimate challenge going blindfolded and setting additional rules for your pieces, but that is not strategy, those are a lot of band-aids not fixing the roots:
AI is bad (this will not be different for long time or forever, who knows) and we can change pace or fix broad broken rules like diplomacy, but a real challenge will be next to impossible
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And to a certain extent, etermes, they always have been.
Things like Mind Hates Matter, the Greater Good and More Than Human started out as self-restrictions for players who felt that psionics were too OP.
To a certain extent things like Save Scum and Alternate Sources were also ways you used to self-police until you were given the option not to.
But I’m not saying that this lets SG off the hook - they still have to produce a playable game with an AI that provides a challenge and a platform off which they and modders can build.
However, this is such a complex game that such a platform will only go some way towards satisfying you, me and ??? (whoever that may be), because we want completely different things out of the game. And just because you and I want a bigger challenge than ??? doesn’t make their wishes any less valid. Difficulty Options will only balance out the field so far, then mods & SWOs have to take over.
But for whatever reason, SG have made this game so difficult to mod that I think they will need to shoulder a lot of that burden themselves if they want this game to become a classic.
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I absolutely agree.
As I have said on many occasions before, I dream of the day when I can play this game without having to treat it as if I’m playing a 5-year-old and restricting my actions to those a 5-year-old can cope with.
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I ask myself that question always when thinking about changes, and that’s why I insist on distinguishing between ‘power fantasy’ and broken asf combo, pardon my language. If someone is playing the game because of the latter and would see no reason to play the game without it, perhaps they should move on to something else (I would suggest something on their mobile phone).
You can have a tactical game with power fantasy elements; it might not be to the liking of everyone, but it’s still tactics. You can then add a layer of customization via SWO, and then players can come up with additional layers via mods.
But you have to start from a reasonable baseline. It can’t be that to actually play the game in its nominal genre you have to go into a dashboard with a gazillion settings, and turn the knobs just in the right way.
Also, I think I can say without breaking any confidences that the devs have been very straightforward with us when it comes to things that can’t be done, or that they like the way they are, and see no reason to change, and Terminator Builds are not one of those things.
I don’t disagree with anything you have said here.
BUT - and here is where the devs have already made a rod for their own back - there is a significant fanbase for this game which likes &/or feels the need for the power fantasy elements and would be deeply disappointed if they were removed. There is also a significant number of players who don’t want the power fantasy because it spoils an otherwise excellent tactical game.
So how do you square that circle?
Difficulty settings are the starting point. Easy should be a walk in the park, where a player can sit back and enjoy the story, and as long as (s)he plays reasonably competently should have a fair expectation of getting to the end with a massive inverse difficulty curve in their favour. Veteran should require more work but still tilt the inverse difficulty curve in favour of the player. Heroic and Legendary should be progressively more difficult - with Legendary in my view so hard that you only manage to achieve a level playing field against the Pandas by the time you reach the Final Mission.
But I still think that the very nature of this sandbox means they will only get you so far. So once you’ve played the game once and (theoretically) know what you’re doing, you should have the option of playing it again but saying: “I want this much of a power fantasy; I want this level of ‘realism’ in the way my Bionics/Mutations/Storage solutions are handled; I want Diplomacy to enable/punish me for being a Dick and I want Faction Politics to mean something/nothing etc etc.”
Now a lot of this could, should and would have been handled by modding - if SG hadn’t f!*ed up the modding scene so badly. But in the absence of modders, the way forward imho is and always has been SWOs.
As I said to etermes: doesn’t let SG off the hook. Doesn’t mean the base Vanilla game shouldn’t have a competent AI and a set of decently balanced skills. But your definition of ‘decently balanced’ and ???'s definition of ‘decently balanced’ are such poles apart that neither of you are ever going to be completely satisfied by the vanilla game. One of you is always going to feel shortchanged. SWOs are a way of avoiding that.
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Quite the opposite. I want this game to run and run, with a huge player base and a vibrant modding community that makes it better all the time. Which isn’t likely to happen if it remains in its current broken state.
See, what I really don’t understand about this quote is that the only one so far demanding that it has to be their way is you. Read my exchange with Voland above: I’m constantly championing your position and trying to give you what you want; while you constantly insist that it only has to be your way and no-one else’s.
The whole point of Second Wave Options is you get to play the way that YOU want and I get to play the way that I want. Nobody loses, everybody wins. What on earth is wrong with that?
And I don’t think I am breaking any confidences when I tell you that the devs came to us in the CC and said: “This skill is not working the way it should be. How do we tweak it to make it do what it’s supposed to do?” The solution they then adopted was not a solution that any of us proposed, but a variant which essentially kept the sandbox open (ie. any weapon can use RB) but was only really viable with massive-spray machine guns - which is what the skill was originally designed for in the first place.
TBH, I don’t like the new RB much either - I’d have gone back to the old BB version where you set a start point and an end point and swung the gun in an arc between the 2, mowing down everything in between.
But to say that we so-called ‘Legendary’ players forced the devs to impose the new RB upon you is simply wrong I’m afraid (and both I and MadSkunky are on record many times saying that we don’t play on Legend btw - he mainly plays Vet and I play Hero). The devs decided what to do with RB, not us, though we were consulted and to a certain extent overruled if you bother to read what I’ve written above.
The devs are also on-record as saying that they think the OP Terminator skills should be toned down, but they haven’t got time to do it yet.
But I get it - I really do - I understand that you don’t want to lose them. That’s what a decent set of SWOs can do for you. If you really want to be able to Rapid Clear your way through an entire map of Crabbies, I really, really want to give you the option to do that - despite the fact that I (and the devs) think that it breaks the game and should be curbed.
It’s no skin off my nose if you want to waltz through this game like a Superman, just so long as I’m not forced to do so as well.
Choice - that’s what I’m trying to give to both of us. So please stop accusing me of some sinister plot to take away your fun. Cos actually Omega, I’m one of the Councillors whose constantly on your side.
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‘Power fantasy’ is not necessarily at odds with ‘tactics’. (it is at odds, or at least in friction, with realism, but that’s a different story), and there is no doubt that the devs want power fantasy in their game. But, again, that is different from combos that are like inputing a cheat command.
Not at all. As said several times, there are still “some” good possibilities to combine the game in such a way that it is still “fun”. RB is just a good example of bad implementation forced by the community. I only want to keep the things that were good and not the things that have become bad.
I am always at your side.
BTW: If developers do not know what they are developing, then I should really think about it. 
Did you not read my post above.
RB wasn’t forced by the community. It was already on the devs radar as something that wasn’t working as intended.
And yes, there are all kinds of combos that can make this game fun. There are also all kinds of combos that can break the game.
Most people would argue that the game-breaking combos should be eradicated. Actually, I don’t. I long ago came to the conclusion that the game-breaking combos should be fixed for the vanilla game, but left as options for the people who want (or have got used to) them in SWOs.
As I say, that way everyone gets what they want and everyone’s happy. Really, what IS wrong with that?
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+1. You get what you want. To each his own. Still 
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I would like to have option to play with adjusted inventory system - 1 primary weapons + 1secundary weapon (pistol) or equipment + equipment, like in similar games
I consider the current system with 3 ready system as a factor, which directly decreases tactical depth in Phoenix Point; on beginning of turn, a Player can choose to attack with sniper rifle or heavy cannon depends on situation,
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And on that note, that is where the current RB makes things interesting - even if I don’t particularly like the arbitrariness of the cone. It’s now a tactical challenge to position your gunner in the optimum position and ensure that the RB actually does something useful; and I for one get a real buzz when I manage to pull it off.
Gone are the days when you simply stood at one end of the map and unthinkingly pressed RB on a couple of Sniper/Heavies to take down the biggest thing in the game.
But where you and I differ, I think, is I don’t really care if someone else wants to get their rocks off by doing just that, so long as I’m not forced to play in that environment as well. We both want a proper chess match with the Pandas, but I’m perfectly happy if ??? chooses the ‘Terminator Cheat’ option - or Infinite Resources, or No Ambushes, or 12-man Squads (or whatever) - I just don’t want to have to treat MY game like a 5-year-old in order to get the kind of challenge that I’m after.
But the stable door has been open for a very long time now, and the only reasonable way I see of shutting it is by leaving a Second door open for people who want to do play at polar opposites of the stable to pass through.
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Agree, fully. Point.
It would also be nonsensical if you already built in options like this and then still take OP builds away from the people who enjoy these overly powerful builds. These options offer an elegant way to satisfy everyone, and I don’t see why there should be anything out of the question.
Even if it ends up being a cluttered bunch of options, it’s still better than making some lazy compromises that may not end up satisfying anyone. Too little for those who advocate a balanced system and still too much for those who enjoy overpowered skills.
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Yes, that is perhaps true, up to a point. The truth is I’m a fan of the game (I wrote the book on it, for Chtuhlu’s sake! ) and I think I want the investment I made in it to be justified.
So I want the person who picks up the game for the first time to like it, without having to discover online that unless you turn that knob here and that knob there, you are in for playing Doom with Godmode on.
Also, I think it’s more likely that the devs will fix the absolutely stupid stuff than that they add a dashboard with a gazillion knobs.
On the other hand, it’s up to them to decide how to address the issue of broken combos, all I can do is restate my preference that it is addressed in the base game and then further options are added as SWO.
You and me both, which is why I want Heroic & Legendary to be properly balanced and challenging.
But there are different ways to like this game, and as the likes of Omega keeps reminding us, our preferences are not the only ones that are valid (in fact, I suspect we are in the minority but I can’t prove it). He loves this game as much as we do, but for completely different reasons.
I’m also pretty sure that while the devs will eventually get round to fixing the most ludicrously OP combos, they won’t go as far as you or I might like because they quite rightly have an eye on the casual audience. They also won’t ‘fix’ a ton of other minor annoyances we have with the way the game is balanced.
So from pure self-interest as much as anything else, I’d ultimately like a set of options I can turn to which allows me to tweak the game the way I like and allows Omega to tweak the game the way he likes, and lets us both play it happily without feeling short-changed.
Whether that comes through SWOs or modders we shall see. Now that Sheepy has created Modnix, I’m a tad more optimistic about modding than I have been up till now; but I stand by what I said in the CC: the majority of mods out there are not designed for you and me - they’re designed for Omega.
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