See, here is where I agree with you on the Second Wave options: there are players who enjoy ‘feeling powerful’, ‘Terminator Builds’, or ‘not losing any soldiers’. It’s a very different case from “I don’t like Terminator Builds, but I believe that I need them because the game is too difficult”.
@LouisdeFuines and @MizzouRah, just wondering, would you mind if you would have to opt in to have the casual experience? I mean, if the game was balanced on Rookie so that you wouldn’t need [insert your favorite combo] to beat it and thus you wouldn’t have access to it, but you could have the option on any difficulty to have all the unnerfed combos you want?
(all this notwithstanding that I haven’t seen anywhere anybody mentioning anything about nerfing Rage Burst specifically)
It’s the ‘stable door’ syndrome. RB was clearly never intended to be used with single-shot weapons - it was originally touted as a special ability with Deceptors, so that you could do the Arnie thing with a gatling-gun - but they didn’t think to limit it in the orginal build, so when some enterprising player discovered that a Sniper/Heavy could use it with a Sniper Rifle, everyone jumped on the bandwagon.
A 15-shot RB with any Sniper Rifle in the game effectively killed any target stone dead. So they nerfed it to 5 shots - coincidentally as many as a full mag for a Deceptor - but didn’t completely shut it down; and now people expect to be able to RB with Sniper Rifles.
But like I say, I don’t want to deny you that pleasure. Personally, I think it’s an abomination, but if they can give us both what we want in a Second Wave, that’s clearly the most popular solution.
I absolutly agree that Rage Burst must work only with weapon that firing bursts! BUT! Then remove accuracy penalty at all, cause it was made mainly for snipers and Hell Cannons. And maybe limit on 5 “bullets” remove too.
It’s not worth speculating at the moment about which abilities are going to change and in which way.
At the moment, we’re just letting the community know that we’re working on terminator builds for the future patch. We specifically haven’t mentioned which abilities are being changed and what those changes will be as we want to test and balance them.
We identified the most commonly exploited ability combinations using feedback from the Community Council and the general player base.
We had a long meeting with the designers where we talked through the problematic builds, talked about the ways in which they were too powerful, and also discussed about why some players felt they needed to rely on them.
The design team have come up with a number of different solutions for each, and we’re using prototype testing to determine which work the most effectively.
We want players to have a fair chance against the AI without having to resort to these terminator builds.
The way it was first introduced (around BB4 if I remember rightly - maybe BB3), it was: “Look at this cool thing your Heavy can do, it lets you recreate that Arnie moment by sweeping your gatling gun across the field.” It came with a cool video - reproduced somewhere on these forums though I can’t be bothered to hunt it down - that showed a Heavy setting a start point and an end point and sweeping his gun between the two, mowing down everything in between: not something that a Sniper Rifle was ever designed to do.
When it appeared on Dec 3rd, they had got rid of the sweep (don’t know why, presumably too difficult to implement), and it allowed your Heavy to empty the magazine of any weapon in his armoury. But since that was Deceptors & Hel Cannons with atrocious accuracy it wasn’t too OP - the challenge was always how to get your Heavy in position to unleash hell.
Then some American dude stumbled across the Sniper/Heavy and posted a video. People wouldn’t believe it at first - until they saw the video of the Sniper pumping 15 rounds into a Scylla at long range. It was so game-breakingly OP, it was clearly unintended and got nerfed down to 5 shots shortly afterwards - the size of a Deceptor mag.
So Sniper RB was clearly an unintended consequence of the open skills sandbox. But the genie was out of the bottle and the game was so tough back then that Snapshot was clearly loth to put it back in the bottle.
Me personally, I have never once used RB with a Sniper Rifle. Used it with a pistol once, just to get the damn mission over with when my RB’ing Heavy failed to put down a Scylla in a Citadel, and I occasionally use it with Auto-Rifles. But for me, RB is, was and always should have been designed to recreate that moment in Predator where the squad empties all its auto-weapons at the jungle and the gatling gun just ends up spinning on empty because the shooter never stops squeezing the trigger.
The thing is: Sniper with rage burst presents PP in a very specific way that I personally find awkward. It can start trivially (very effective multi shoots from the starting position) and lead to complete boredom without any movement (many sniper / heavy shoot their magazines empty forever and also take care of the boss opponents) but still damn effectively. For me it is much more than just an “OP” skill because it takes the tension and drama out of a combat.
Certainly nothing against your opinion @LouisdeFuines. The tastes are known to be different and it is up to Snapshot to decide whether they want to present their game in this way or not.
Exactly. Nothing against very strong skills, which are weighed against a certain risk or have to be prepared very carefully (positioning).
How about just taking the Overwatch cone? Everything in between is blown up.
I always thought that was the role of sniper. Find a vantage point and pick off what they can. One’s assault are the advance team. There are at least 3 ways to use the heavy, long range artillery, jet to an advantage point to discover the enemy, or as a tank. For the heavy, I use the first 2.
In my style, taking 10+ turns to capture a Scylla is boring. Which is why I argue that RB should be available for any fired weapon. I don’t see any harm in limiting the number of volleys to 3.
It’s a strategic & tactical recreation, not a cinematic remake of the Predator.
That’s perhaps one of the key issues, and a fair criticism I have often seen leveled at the game - that the optimal approach is to maximize the damage output of each soldier, rather than using combined tactics.
So when you look at the map you can just think in terms of “soldier 1 will take care of enemies A and B (or A through Z sometimes ) and soldier 2 will do C, and soldiers 3 and 4 will do D and E,” and so on and so forth, when you want something more like soldier 1 will do x, which will allow soldier 2 to do y and which will in turn allow soldier 3 to do z. Phoenix Point has the complexity to be played like that, but why bother if you can just click on things until they die?
@mcarver2000 and that’s the problem with Rage Burst and some other skills/combos. It’s not a question of whether snipers should hang back, or whether the skill should, or shouldn’t recreate a cinematic experience (though, come on, it definitely should be a Jesse Ventura moment!)
It’s one of the key objetives in the game. It should be challenging and take time. It should not be a quick harvesting operation.
I suppose you know my opinion. “Rage BURST” should be for BURST weapons. Nothing to discuss here. If there would be an option on the lowest difficulty to retain it for any weapon, then maybe… Maybe something like that could stay.