To prevent alpha-strikes

Here is an excerpt from another thread:

Nerf everything - #53 by walan

Enemy:
HEAVY “OP”

  • Bomb Chiron (mortar?): Often discussed … not fulfilling the tactical definition above.
  • Acid Chiron: just absolutely unfair?
  • Siren: stands behind the wall and can take over several soldiers without line of sight … has also been discussed many times. Maybe the Siren can cancel the entire “WP” on the first turn and take control only on the next turn? So you would have more time to react …
  • Number of opponents: You currently need “OP” skills to simply cope with the amount of opponents. The level of difficulty should make a significant difference in the number. It will also make the long turns of opponents run faster.

LIGHT “OP”

  • Goo Chiron: not that much experience …
  • Arthron: Bomb is dropped for 2 AP. This will at least severely limit tactical responses, especially when he’s standing next to you.
  • Return Fire: can be avoided, but looks unfair when triggered. When I get shot, I don’t shoot back with full precision!
    .

You will probably recognize a few things from playing through them …
On the whole, the point is that both sides should not be able to decide the combat match in one turn, regardless of the level of difficulty. This alpha striking takes the tactics out of this tactical game, since the opposite side cannot really counter. (everything is decided after the first round)

This one in particular REALLY needs work, and in exactly the form that is described above. I was quite surprised last night when the devs set as completed the “Rework Difficulty” feedback on canny, saying that difficulty is now as intended.

Well devs, difficulty settings still don’t really affect that much. It should determine how many enemies you encounter on a map, and of what grade of enemy. It should also affect:

  • Types of encounters
  • The speed at which the Pandoran’s build new bases
  • The speed of the spread of the mist
  • Enemy accuracy rate, health and armor

Currently the difficulty level does not affect that. So I’m sorry devs but you’ve not fixed the games difficulty yet. You made the game easier in some aspects (eg evolution), but completely not in others. If the difficulty is “working as intended” then it’s intended for nothing but masochists.

And what are your difficulty Settings?

Veteran setting

I don’t think anyone should be able to alpha strike on turn 1 :slight_smile:

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I can’t say that better than @VOLAND.
Alpha striking for BOTH SIDES is the mother of all problems that simply make the level of difficulty unfair.

As an an example:
If players who have mastered alpha striking (terminator builds) knock out 15 enemys in two turns, pure statistics would say that there are probably still too few enemys.
Another (inexperienced) player who hasn’t discovered these “OP” builds then wonders how the hell should I deal with this number of opponents. And that’s the unfair thing about it!

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I don’t think alpha-strikes are unfair at all. With the new DLC / updates I run into many missions with multiple Chirons (once had double explosive, a couple explosive goo, the rest more “fair” like acidworm / poison). Further, a couple times there were 2 sirens and scylla in the vicinity, making alpha-strikes very risky. They can easily alpha back in those situations. Without alpha-strikes the game would be very unbalanced.
There have been many suggestions on how to cut this down (like larger maps, more hidden units) but I think that would shift the advantage. Players would be forced to take cover where ever they could, knowing there is a huge chance of Chiron rain.
Further, alpha-strikes are not really possible except with your best team(s). In my campaign right now I have an uber-force that started from the beginning, of course level 7, and pretty maxed out. They are indeed overpowered. The only map I would be worried about even losing one soldier would be double Chiron explosive with no cover. Even then, I think it would almost always be GG in three turns (maybe a straggler for turn 4) Then team two is pretty powerful but I would feel too exposed to alpha-strike on some Extreme haven missions. It requires much more patience. These are mostly 4-6 level with medium stats. The 3rd team would lose / retreat vs Extreme. Level 2-4 and not much (can’t remember exactly, I think none) augmentation. They don’t have any real ability to alpha-strike. So, from my perspective, alpha-striking isn’t really available for quite sometime and it is a necessary counter to some very overpowered enemy maps.

And myself, Volund, Wayland, Nattfarinn repteat again and again: you can’t nerf the OP alpha-skils unless you nerf the unbalanced Panda forces.

As Volund has put it very coherently above and in many other posts, alpha-striking by experienced players is hiding the underlying imbalance in this game, which is caused as much by vast numbers of overpowered Pandas (like Acid Chirons) as it is by OP Skill combos.

But an argument that says you must keep the OP Skill combos because that’s the only way of surviving the OP Panda maps is both ignoring and misunderstanding the central point of the argument. We have to get rid of BOTH to properly balance this game: Nerf everything

Frankly, it’s Mutually Assured Destruction: “They have the power to destroy us 10 times over, so we need the power to destroy them 10 times over.” How about we all just de-escalate things so that each side only has the power to destroy the other 1 time over and see how that works?

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I don’t disagree, except to say that not all teams can “alpha-strike” so it forces you into more methodical tactics, patiently covering and setting up zones of fire. As the player, you usually have a turn to get set up (assuming not OP Panda Chirons) to handle their first big attack, then you can take it from there. So you are forced to play in a more balanced manner.
Unfortunately, at least for me, that is why I find the early game more interesting. If it were balanced, combat would be more interesting throughout.

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TBH, I don’t really alpha-strike, because like Volund I restrict my Squaddies to 1 use per skill per turn.
It makes for a much tenser, more interesting tactical game - even in the later stages.

Only time I Cheeze it is fighting Lairs, which are just a mind-numbing slog otherwise.

Since @SpiteAndMalice started this thread, I began taking note of missions where I can’t alpha-strike.
Sometimes, as @jskintauy said, I just don’t have the right team but since I tend to organize my units around dash or long range (I suspect many of us do), the instances I found are more often about one mission’s specific mix of map lay-out, positioning, enemy types and at times objectives.

Let me repeat that I don’t think aplha-strikes should be entirely banned : I believe it is a valid tactic, one that is sometimes quite interesting to conceive and execute, though one that could be made much more “playfull” if it was more risky. What I consider to be a problem is alpha-strike being the most efficient tactic in most missions, be cause it narrows a geme that is so much richer.
So, here are a first few types of missions that wouldn’t let me alpha-strike (I tried a few ways to test it out a bit), I liked them for it and I bundled them in loose categories…

Tunnels
Simply that : narrow, dark, twisty pandoran bases, mainly nests or lairs, are still most resistant to alpha-trike, having my units progressing cautiously in a very XCOMy “overwatch crawl”. With various Sentinels, eggs everywhere, sound and graphic design to match, they are among my favourite maps.
Sadly, Citadels really don’t live up to their name : more maze-like maps and quite a bit of reinforcement making for an endurance challenge would be better, I feel.

Waves
Also very simple : a lot like in the most effective “ambush” missions (some of those are to weak to be a challenge), whenever you’re in for many enemies coming at you in swaths, alpha-strikes are moot.

Crawlers in the waste field
Again, pretty simple : a whole bunch of Tritons, Worms and Mindfraggers are sometimes spread-out through a very busy map I can’t realisticly rush through. That’s a good match. Add a time-sensitive objective, like crates or squishy hiding civilians and, barring a lucky jet-move revealing most of them in one fly-over, it make for a pretty intense guerrilla-mission.
I used to find more of those in BB5, I wonder why they haven’t really came up in my recent campaigns…

Invasion, for lack of a better word
Because of map lay-outs, it’s sometimes very clear both where enemies are coming from and where they’re going to strike, hard, on their first turn(s) : when we start too far away from each other or if there’s too much occlusion between us for a pre-emptive strike (Synedrion havens in general and residential Anu slumbs maps often have a lot of “see through cover”, favouring that kind of scenario), my best choice is therefore to interpose my units. Since I’m going to be in a dual-purpose defensive position (defending the objective(s) and not exposing my guys) for at least a few turns, when the procedutal generation get lucky, it really changes the dynamic of the game (and I love it).

Entrenched New Jericho
Being at war with NJ in my current playthrough, I’ve met quite a few missions with agressive and heavily armored units, including assault with piercing rifles, tech laying turrets in my way, snipers perched -atop buildings (often a bit “hidden”) and a few heavies flying down on me.
They’re already worthy opponents on “High” threat, but if they get “Extreme” or when the map is multi-layered (various multi-stories buildings, favoring jet-packs and already positioned snipers), large and congested enough that my Dashers can’t really run through it while NJ can hide a little (they’re not very stealthy, obviously, but some of them still managed to surprise me), that’s a challenge !
I can’t really rush them, my most perceptive units never find them all out before they begin shooting me up, I absolutely must stay in cover, use overwatch and play cautiously.
When encountered on scavenging maps (I’m at war with NJ in my current playthrough) knowing they’ll try and destroy as many crates as they can (which is a bit weird, from a fiction stand point, but makes for an efficient time-pressure) or whenever invading other factions, it makes for (interesting) hard choices.
Though Anu forces don’t seem to bring the same challenges, I believe long-range Synedrion units may have a similar effect, but I haven’t experienced those myself (I find that faction too sympathetic to fight it).

Hidden biggies
Though I feel Chrion bombarding from afar is a sometimes unfair, an undetected Scylla jumping me out of nowhere can be a fun surprise. If it then spawn mist and a Mindfragger, I instantly must change my tactics and, whenever the map may actually conceal a Scylla, I’m on the back foot and don’t try to alpha-strike.
Two Sirens giving Frenzy to each other and a bunch of minions before rushing out of their hiding place to rush my guys is also pretty fun.

Arthrons machine-guns cluster
Encountered of various maps, a group of machine-gun Arthrons is tight enough that their Returr-Fire would shred to pieces any “Rapid Clearance” unit going in with a shotgun. If the landscape protect them or they have enough armor that sniping them of or shooting of most of their gun-arm wouldn’t work, they become mostly impregnable, so I have to lay in wait (and overwatch for the first turn). If a Siren can then give them Frenzy, their first turn is going to be challenging and I spend mine preparing.

Have you found others ?

If you can’t alpha strike, you are not alpha striking right :wink:

Though I’m not doing it in this playthrough, I did in my first one as I was experimenting with different builds/strategies.

The single most reliable way to do it is with a sniper, or assault with the strongman perk. Let’s call him Roy. Roy is a sniper with that perk. I will dual class him into assault and give him a deceptor, leg mutation that gives him +5 to speed, light anu armor that gives him + 3 to speed and the synedrion sniper helmet for 25% accuracy bonus. I will give him top speed and high willpower, dash, quickaim, rapid clearance and ready for action. I will bring along a priest with frenzy and assaults with rally the troops in case there is any trouble closing rapid clearance loops. Oh, if I can, I will bring Roy’s twin brother or sister with him. If I’m not feeling confident, both his siblings.

On a mission, Roy and his siblings, after the Priest casts frenzy, can dash to any point of the map, execute any crab or Triton (including elites), or non elite sirens with a single shot at 5 tiles distance. Bunch of them together with Return Fire? All the better.

Can Roy clean maps all on his own in one turn? Yes, sometimes. But he doesn’t have to. I still have my heavy bombards, my monster-killer with rage burst/infiltrator that does 300% damage with each shot and is a serker too so he can do this nuking four times a turn…

Now with the DLC there is this new thing - the bionic torso to do melee attacks for 1 AP. Put that on an assault/heavy (with extreme mobility) and right there you break the game. (In my current playthrough I gave this torso to a sniper/heavy, and she is still absolutely devastating, one blow killing any crab or Triton, but at least she doesn’t have rapid clearance).

Bottomline: I wouldn’t know how to stop Roy and his brethren from alpha striking. Maybe enemies starting on overwatch, like Spite suggested from the start, but then there are already these new bionic legs to ignore overwatch. Also, it would have unintended and very annoying consequences in some maps, like nests.

And then, TBH, I just don’t see the point of having Roys in the game at all. It’s not like on turn 2 they will stop breaking the game.

In conclusion, I think some serious nerfing is absolutely necessary to get rid of alpha striking, or risk free alpha striking if you will. Then some elements might be introduced/enhanced/optimized to make first turn attacking a viable, but risky tactic.

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I ran into an Arthron machine gun cluster in a slum, and I must admit, I totally alpha-striked because I really couldn’t see how I was going to win when surrounded on three sides. I picked a side, killed everything on one flank (roughly 5 arthrons, a siren and a triton) and dug in. Almost lost a soldier because I left one that could be semi-flanked. Really my mistake. After that 1st turn it was easy. At least you have to carefully think it out…
Had a Fury mission that was brutal (sorta like war with NJ) and they are too heavily armored to guarantee an alpha-strike will work. My jump revealed not enough to justify High difficulty so got totally cautious.
It absolutely should be more risky in general.

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for map sweeps, assaults rapid clearance is mandatory for the AP recycle…it has to be combined with either spamming quick aim or adrenaline rush (or equipment that reduces attack costs with the DLC apparently) to manage the cost of the extreme DPAP weapons needed to pull this off (iconoclast or deceptor, supported by preferably 2 +% dmg third track skills) while dash lowers the cost of movement from 1 cluster to the next. armor break, rage (+% dmg when hurt) or mark for death can be used to help spike the carnage. ready for action is used to eliminate the magazine switch costs…rally and frenzy on support troops will make closing easier as it reduces the main AP drain that will come from moving from 1 enemy to the next.

speed is the primairy stat you want from armor, accuracy is second…but not an extreme priority…none of the high DPAP weapons are very accurate and to ensure you will frequently point blank the target.

as a side note, these builds are powerful but extremely boring to play, they don’t catch the essence of the game when “basic mobs” like tritons and arthrons basically become batteries to fuel the AP’s in order to kill the big targets, and the massive damage these weapons can churn out when supported by damage skills makes all but the scylla and chiron a 1-shot. if you read my suggestions you will notice many of the suggestions will prevent specific interactions between these skills without removing rapid clearance AP refund ability.

reading people suggest these builds drains my will to play as it reminds me how utterly broken the balance can be, as the players are not using a glitch or unintended feature of the skills, (X-com2 loadbug that allowed for infinite turns etc) naturally you can limit yourself (I do, its a great game if you are not abusing the capstones), or mod the stuff out…but it still feels wrong if such things are possible in the base game.

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Yes, this is correct. Rally the troops can refund APs, but without rapid clearance map sweeps would be so situational as to be anecdotical.

Not absolutely necessary, especially for iconoclast, and also rally the troops may be used to close gaps. Plus AoE attacks are often sufficient to soften up a bunch of targets to make them vulnerable to rapid clearance loops with low damage weapons…

If we are talking map swipes by a single soldier, yes, DPAP is very important, but teamwork alpha strikes are much more flexible, and it’s much harder to nail down the requirements for them.

Even now, when playing without any skill spamming, I often find myself doing stuff that, if not alpha striking, gets very close to it.

So yes, these are IMO essential, I just want to point out that probably there would still be situational opportunities for alpha striking even after they would be implemented, which is why Wenlock’s approach also has merits.

Yes, and I think the comparison to a bug, or a glitch is very apt. The worst part is you just come across these builds and suddenly you have to measure your moves to avoid breaking the game. And the current character progression system, where you get so many SPs you don’t know what to do with them, doesn’t help avoiding OP builds either…

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What do people think to the option that PP introduces behaviour similar to how Pods initially react in X-Com? - As soon as you attack the opposition unit, all other units that become alerted by that attack and/or are within a given range will automatically scatter and/or move to their nearest cover.

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Distraction/Split when hearing or seeing: Yes
Pods: Absolutely NO (from the next field on, all other opponents are “activated” I hated that in FiraXcom and that makes PP much better)

IMO, not worth it, because can be completely negated by extreme mobility, and will probably also be exploitable (herding).

Here is a different idea: how about on some maps some Pandorans start cocooned, the cocoons acting as very strong protection? Kind of like eggs for mindfraggers and worms.

Edit: cocoon, not cacoon lol

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That would be cool

That is how it should be. Scenario should look like “Enemy has artillery → run for the cover → then fight”. Not the: “enemy has artillery → I kill it instantly → then we can have rest of the fight”.

Tactical fight in just 4 turns? Then there is no tactic to look upon. :slight_smile: As many players have said it gets boring after some time.

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