Suggestions for Weapon Effects

[Gunlord500]

Hey guys! Since this board is also for suggestions, I thought I’d put some of them here.

One of the things I’m really liking about this game so far are the weapon effects, which IMO add a new layer of complexity to the game. We have Sniper Rifles and Pistols having armor penetration and the Heavy’s machinegun having armor shredding. Since these effects are per bullet rather than just hit/miss (i.e in Firaxiscoms, an attack would either shred armor to its maximum effect if it hit or not shred anything at all if it missed), there’s a little more gradation here, which I like. So here are my ideas:

1: I do hope you’ll be able to upgrade those effects. Like, the Sniper Rifle ignoring one pip of armor is cool, but against the armored queen that’s like the difference between one and two points of damage (since she has 6 armor). I hope future weapons will be able to disregard two, three, etc. pips of armor to deal with tougher enemies. Same with the Heavy–as it is, each bullet, if it hits, has a what, 20% chance to shred armor? That’s OK, given he shoots 15 bullets, but once enemies get better armor, I’d hope to see a maximum shredding possibility of 50 or even 60 percent, for really awesome shredding abilities.

2: How about grenades or missiles with those types of abilities? I know the ones we have right now have a degree of armor shredding, but there’s room for more variation. For instance, a spectrum of:

A: Grenades with high damage but low shred%
B: The balanced grenades we have now
C: Grenades with very high shred%
D: Grenades without shredding but with some armor penetration.

3: Also, how about more weapon effects? Aside from Armor Penetration, Armor Shredding, Stun, and Return Fire, I have a couple of ideas:

A: Part Destroyer: In addition to its base damage per shot, the weapon deals +1 (or some other number) of damage to individual parts, making it very effective at crippling monsters.
B: Fire/Acid Grenades: In addition to the explosion, they set the ground on fire, denying it to the enemy.
C: Will damage: Even if the shot doesn’t kill, a hit reduces the enemy’s Will by 1 or more (this is better for single-shot weapons).
D: TU reduction: Every bullet that lands takes off 1 or 2% of the enemy’s TU next turn (good on multiple-shot weapons).
E: Swordbreaker: Does bonus damage to enemy weapons.

Those are just some of my ideas, how about yours?

[rasvoja]

There used to be various granades alongside primer, and I do hope of some comeback in new light.

Yes, I do miss “mines” (proximity granades) and high explosives for quite a long time and TFD introduced sonic pulser.

Like you idea on various affects.

[kompan]

I would go kind of Borderlands style:

• Fire against flesh (damage over time),
• Acid against armour,
• Sticky reduces mobility,
• Flashbang reduces Willpower,
• Smoke reduces accuracy,
• Explosive damages limbs or weapons,
• Shock stuns and so on.

[Truefell]

Personally, I dislike such straightforward board game approach.

@Gunlord500

A: Part Destroyer: In addition to its base damage per shot, the weapon deals +1 (or some other number) of damage to individual parts, making it very effective at crippling monsters.
B: Fire/Acid Grenades: In addition to the explosion, they set the ground on fire, denying it to the enemy.
C: Will damage: Even if the shot doesn’t kill, a hit reduces the enemy’s Will by 1 or more (this is better for single-shot weapons).
D: TU reduction: Every bullet that lands takes off 1 or 2% of the enemy’s TU next turn (good on multiple-shot weapons).
E: Swordbreaker: Does bonus damage to enemy weapons.

I don’t mind different ammo types(Fire/Acid/Thermite/Neurotoxin…), but please no more abstract perks on a weapons. Such thing will work for a fantasy game(because magic), but not for the Sci-fi world like PP.

[Gunlord500]

Hmm, how about certain weapon classes that have a “Hair Trigger” ability–overwatch costs half as much TUs to activate as a regular shot?

[Truefell]

I understand what you are saying, and partially agree. But some of your suggestions sounds a bit gamey or unrealistic(or maybe it’s just me). For example: “Hair Trigger” ability could be described from a game perspective as a specific weapon upgrade that allows PP soldiers with enough training react faster when overwatching. Or “Will damage” could mean that we use special ammo with anti-PandoraVirus drugs that make virus affected units suffer mental effects.
But things like “Part Destroyer” are just doesn’t sound realistic to me. Like, if you do more damage to parts why can’t you do more damage to a whole enemy.

[Siilk]

I agree with @Truefell, I would very much prefer for abilities and not to interact with game mechanics directly. I.e. nothing like “if you succeed in action X, replenish TUs” or “weapon Y deals double damage if it’s target was already damaged this turn”. Such glaringly game-y interactions are ok for a more abstract game, like a tabletop or a card game, be it virtual or real. But given PP has a good amount of simulated depth to it, this such things will be jarring and immersion breaking.

As for different ammo types in general, I am all for it. Original XCom had those and Apocalypse had even more of those. And it was good.

[Gunlord500]

I suppose, though I think there is a room for TU damaging weapons–that was pretty much Xenonaut’s 'Suppression" mechanic, the advantage of using machineguns was that even if they didn’t hit, they could suppress aliens. But anyways, here are my suggestions. OK, so here are the present weapon classes we have:

Assault Rifle: 50% TUs for 6 moderate-damage shots, has Return Fire ability
Heavy Machinegun: 75% TUs for 15 moderate-damage shots, has Armor Shredder ability (lvl1)
Sniper Rifle: 75% TUs for 1 powerful shot, high accuracy, lvl1 Armor Penetration
Pistol: Low TU cost, low weight, and can be used one-handed, but only fires one moderate-damage shot with lvl1 armor penetration, Return Fire, and low accuracy
PDW: 4 moderate damage shots at 25% TUs per attack, relatively light weight, has Return Fire

OK, so here are some alternative weapon classes I thought up:

1: Machine Pistol: Has the same stats as the pistol (One-handed, light weight, low accuracy, return fire, armor piercing lvl1), but fires 3 shots rather than 1, at the price of using 50% TUs rather than 25%. Very effective with Gunslinger.

2: Marksman’s Rifle: Same general stats as the Sniper Rifle (2-handed, armor penetration, high accuracy) but does less damage in return for costing 50% rather than 75% TUs to fire.

3: Flamethrowers: Can be 1 or 2 handed (the 2-handed variants do more damage and have a larger area of effect, but also weigh more and cost more TUs to fire). This bathes a cone in front of the user with fire and can set enemies aflame. It also does bonus damage against small swarm like creatures, which Julian mentioned we might fight eventually. However, if the weapon is destroyed it will explode, so keep your flamethrower units out of harm’s way.

4: Shotgun: Low accuracy but very high damage–to reflect this weapon’s role on the battlefield, its special ability is that its bullets get a damage bonus the closer they are to the enemy (i.e the game checks how far away a target is from your character when the bullet your character fired hits it, and adds a damage bonus if the distance is low enough). Can load either shot (multiple bullets with wide spread, easy to hit with) or slug (single round with high armor penetration and excellent damage).

5: Heavy Cannons: Roughly equivalent to the cannons from XCOM, these generally refer to anti-tank big guns, recoilless rifles, or other kinds of anti-armor weapons. They’re two-handed, very heavy, not as accurate as sniper rifles, and require 75% TUs to fire a single round. On the other hand, they do massive damage, and have high armor penetration (lvl2 at the minimum). They’re meant for fighting Armored Queens and Chirons, who are so large that the wielder probably won’t worry about missing, and whose heavy armor can be penetrated by the cannon rounds. They can also blow through Crabmen shields, but their high damage is somewhat wasted on mere infantry, since their ammo is rare and expensive.

6: Grenade Launcher: A heavy two-handed weapon, but it vastly increases the range of your grenades.

7: Bazooka: These powerful two-handed weapons fire explosive ordnance, but they’re heavy, cost 75 TUs to fire, and shoot in a straight line rather than the arc of missile launchers.

How do these sound? :3

[Kings_Rook]

@Gunlord500

1: Machine Pistol: Has the same stats as the pistol (One-handed, light weight, low accuracy, return fire, armor piercing lvl1), but fires 3 shots rather than 1, at the price of using 50% TUs rather than 25%. Very effective with Gunslinger.

They should actually fire more like 12 bullets. Machine Pistols are bullet hoses. They should also be less accurate than pistols. Machine Pistols are notoriously inaccurate.

2: Marksman’s Rifle: Same general stats as the Sniper Rifle (2-handed, armor penetration, high accuracy) but does less damage in return for costing 50% rather than 75% TUs to fire.

Given the weapons that become marksman’s rifles, aka battle rifles, I’d actually make it:

less accurate than a sniper rifle, but more than the assault rifle
less damaging per bullet than the sniper rifle, but more than the assault rifle
low AP levels
single shot
50% TU
capable of return fire
large magazine, 12-18 rounds

3: Flamethrowers: Can be 1 or 2 handed (the 2-handed variants do more damage and have a larger area of effect, but also weigh more and cost more TUs to fire). This bathes a cone in front of the user with fire and can set enemies aflame. It also does bonus damage against small swarm like creatures, which Julian mentioned we might fight eventually. However, if the weapon is destroyed it will explode, so keep your flamethrower units out of harm’s way.

I’d ditch the bonus damage and just make it hit everything it bathes in fire. Also it wouldn’t explode if destroyed. The pressured gas tanks that propel the fuel out the nozzle are filled with compressed nitrogen, and the tanks don’t explode when punctured, they just leak.

4: Shotgun: Low accuracy but very high damage–to reflect this weapon’s role on the battlefield, its special ability is that its bullets get a damage bonus the closer they are to the enemy (i.e the game checks how far away a target is from your character when the bullet your character fired hits it, and adds a damage bonus if the distance is low enough). Can load either shot (multiple bullets with wide spread, easy to hit with) or slug (single round with high armor penetration and excellent damage).

The accuracy of a shotgun is entirely dependent on the choke used. There are chokes that keep the shot at a couple of MoA, and there are others that can make them behave like a video game shotgun. I’d also ditch the special ability. The use of shot is special enough as with the right choke you are virtually guaranteed to get hits in.

Also, 50% TU gun with return fire. And no PGO shotguns. Those are trash.

5: Heavy Cannons: Roughly equivalent to the cannons from XCOM, these generally refer to anti-tank big guns, recoilless rifles, or other kinds of anti-armor weapons. They’re two-handed, very heavy, not as accurate as sniper rifles, and require 75% TUs to fire a single round. On the other hand, they do massive damage, and have high armor penetration (lvl2 at the minimum). They’re meant for fighting Armored Queens and Chirons, who are so large that the wielder probably won’t worry about missing, and whose heavy armor can be penetrated by the cannon rounds. They can also blow through Crabmen shields, but their high damage is somewhat wasted on mere infantry, since their ammo is rare and expensive.

I’d actually make these 90-100% TU weapons. They are that powerful. Also accuracy would very greatly between weapons. Anti-material rifles should go in this category too.

6: Grenade Launcher: A heavy two-handed weapon, but it vastly increases the range of your grenades.

50% TU, but no return fire. they are easy, but unwieldy, to operate.

7: Bazooka: These powerful two-handed weapons fire explosive ordnance, but they’re heavy, cost 75 TUs to fire, and shoot in a straight line rather than the arc of missile launchers.

Technically a kind of recoil-less rifle. See 5.

As for my own ideas

Well I’d like to see those Primacord cutter things that the military use to create mouseholes. Basically they put some primacord on a wall and blast a hole through it to create a new entry without having to go through existing doors that have been bottlenecked. The military has pre-prepared folding packages set up so that soldiers only have to hang the package on the wall and blow it up.

Vehicle mounted mortars could be a good idea as well. Man portable mortars need a team of soldiers

A Light Machine Gun could be interesting as well. Fires something like 9-12 bullets per burst, but uses Assault rifle ammo rather than machine gun ammo so no armour shredding. Starts with a high capacity magazine, but can load the same magazines that the assault rifle uses. More accurate than a machine gun, but less than an assault rifle. either a 50% TU with no return fire weapon, or a 75% TU weapon.

[Gunlord500]

Those primacord things sound like breaching charges? Maybe equivalent to the heavy explosives you’d use in the original XCOM to breach UFOs? Also, great idea for the LMG (slightly better accuracy but no armor shredding)

[Kings_Rook]

breaching charge, there is the name I was looking for.

[Kings_Rook]

oh a different kind of weapon effect, but bipods. Bipods. Bipods. Bipods.

Bipods are enormously effective force multipliers, especially when a barrel is free-floated and the bipod is attached to the sleeve.

[Gunlord500]

Bipods are the stands you can use to steady a gun or heavy weapon, right? What would their effect be in-game? Increase accuracy or reduced TU cost to fire?

[Kings_Rook]

yes, that is what they are. Depending on how they are attached they’d increase accuracy a little to a lot, when deployed. TU cost would be the same.

The downside is, when deployed your field of fire is greatly limited. You are also more exposed when using them because you have to brace the bipod against something. Something like the top of a crate, or the ground.

[Gunlord500]

Ah, OK, so the bipod attachment would only work if you were near half-cover, and would also limit how far you could rotate to choose a target. I wish they did that for vehicles too, like have limited rotation for the turret, to make facing more important

[Kings_Rook]

either half-cover, or if they include a prone stance, on the ground. Deploying the bipod wouldn’t be expensive either, thinking maybe 5-10% TU, but that exposure is dangerous if you aren’t heavily protected.

[Gunlord500]

I don’t think they’ll be including prone stances, that might be too much work, I think they mentioned that.

[Kings_Rook]

oh and maybe for the independent havens, some lever action rifles as they are very reliable despite being obsolete.

assault rifle accuracy and damage, single shot, return fire, 50% TU, 6 rounds or so

[Mechasaurian]

How about poisoned bullets? Bullets loaded with some kind of toxin engineered to be hostile to PV-based life, in the style of Apocalypse?

[Kings_Rook]

the thing with poison and toxin bullets is it takes a long time for the poison or toxin to work. Like ten minutes to several hours long. unless you are using something so lethal that the bullets are hazard for you to even handle.