PP-Beginner begging for help

Phoenix Point
1

Hey there…I’m an XCOM-fan who just recently bought this game (about christmas) and am struggling A LOT to figure out what I am doing wrong…I’m not a hardcore-veteran that completed XCOM-games on hardest difficulty with soldiers only equiping handguns and their underpants or anything fancy, but I still managed to complete it on at least normal difficulty…but in Phoenix Point I’m completely stuck at this point (about 20 hours or so into the game) because of the following reasons:

1. Enemy armor

I get that pandorans have a lot of crab DNA or whatever and found it nice that I had to tactically position my soldiers to target their weak spots (or blast right through them with a heavy lol), but right now almost every enemy, even the crabmen, have no body part with under 20 armor, most of them nothing below 30.
Sooo non-heavy or non-sniper weapons don’t deal enough damage to cripple their gun-arms…which results in return fire that almost kills every one of my soldiers…I just got the New Jericho assault rifle (Bulldog I think) because it seemed like it was better than the standard Ares gun in almost every way, but still not enough…do I have to focus on squads with heavies? Is armor shred just king in this game or am I doing something terribly wrong?
My 1st squad (currently have 2 6-man-squads and 3 bases) consists of 2 heavies (grenade and gauss machine gun), 1 berserk/assault with iconoclast shotgun, 1 sniper (new-jericho-sniper-rifle), and 2 assaults with assault rifles (which don’t do crap like I mentioned)…now I already had to save-scum several times in different missions, because I was screwed if the enemies spawned in the wrong locations and I had to take on to many at once…now I’m facing my first Scylla in a haven defense mission and I’m screwed -.-

2. Lairs

I have thus far only destroyed one pandoran lair sucessfully, and even there I had to savescum until I got a bit lucky and get good shooting positions for most of my guys while 1 of my heavies jumped around the map, looking for the spawnery…I just can’t kill them as fast as I spawn, using all my actions & morale to shoot down sirens, crabmen & tritions while most of the time I get bombed by artillery
I have no action points left for moving forward; I grind to a halt just by holding the enemy at bay, because just running would get me swarmed with grenades by the crabmen, if the shotgun-tritons and sirens don’t get them earlier…most of the time I don’t even get to see the spawnery, even though I googled where they likely spawn & know where they probably are…

3. Overwatch

A few times I tried to create a death-zone on maps I was outnumbered on, so the enemy would at least lose 1 or 2 guys on his turn, giving me breathing room…but most overwatch shots either didn’t connect, because I couldn’t properly predict how they would aim at an enemy that comes around the corner (seemingly shooting as soon as they can see their toes, giving them about a 1% chance to really hit) or aimed at open field where they would have an easier time hitting - which enemies almost always avoided, shooting my guys from the side.
Am I using Overwatch wrong?

I’d appreciate any help from players that have a better grasp of the mechanics; rightnow I can’t even win most scavenging missions (shown with enemy strenght high) because every crabman deals more damage AND is more durable than my average soldier, even with my top crew (level 5), let alone my newly recruited squad (highest level 3).

Greetings,
Radoras

1 Like
2

For the assaults try swapping over to shotguns if you can afford them. Had a few of my assaults one shot crabmen with ~270 health using either phoenix shotguns or disciple ones. If that isn’t an option due to resources perhaps shoot from a bit further back with assault rifles, the return fire only works within perception range. Don’t quote me on these numbers, but say a crabman has 10 perception you can safely shoot him from 11 tiles away without triggering return fire. Either zoom in and aim to knock off the gun arm or knock out his head to lower perception. You might also duck in and out of cover to take shots, say you move 3 tiles back to be out of a crabs return fire range, shoot him then move back into cover nearer him.

For overwatch setup zones more carefully, hold control and use the mouse wheel to widen or narrow the zone. So rather than the overwatch zone covering half the map have it cover a line about two tiles out from cover that’s a few tiles wide, so the crab has to be clear of cover before it triggers overwatch.

With squad setup i’ve been going 2 snipers, 1 heavy, 1 tech, 1 berserker 1 priest then two assaults as soon as i unlock or steal my first 8 seat craft, though response time is awful due to its low speed. Maybe better to steal two five seat aircrafts and double team the tougher battles since you can choose from up to 8 guys per missions. If there is a heavy armored enemy have the berserker use armor break on it, which works with their pistol. The priest is rather inaccurate with its virus gun but if you get a few shots to connect it’s a rather nice chunk of will lost per turn, made even better if the priest happens to have the perk to give an extra 1 viral per hit. Hit a siren with a bit of the virus and they run out of will much faster.

For lairs i vary the squad a bit, seems like assaults pull their weight better, though of course they don’t hit as hard or as accurately as a sniper. The heavy can also be a bit of a drag in lairs as it’s rare they can move with the squad and still be able to shoot, felt like i might fire my heavies weapon once or twice on a lair where anyone else can get multiple kills. Yet i hate to entirely leave the big guns at home… multiclass the heavy with assault and bring along an assault rifle and they become a bit more useful, it can at least do a half move and overwatch.

Of course the optimal squad isn’t always available. My current game i have my A team i described above clearing the tough battles from their stolen 8 seat aircraft. B team rides around in my starter aircraft and was 1 tech, 2 priests 1 sniper and 2 assaults. I’d gladly swap out a priest to get a heavy, and luckily this morning i finally found one for them. C team was pretty rough… Ended up with double priests, 3 assaults and a tech. Got them ambushed this morning in the mist and 2 of my assaults were able to one shot 2 crabmen each on the first turn to save the day. Ended up in a fighting retreat after reinforcements showed up but pulled the battle off without a casualty (though several near deaths, those crabs sure are accurate), which was good because any kind of recruit is rather rare in this game and the factions are destroying eachothers havens faster than the virus does anything.

3

I use assault rifles a lot…and I flipping hate the bulldog…but that may be because I really value the accuracy stat in the game (effective range)

assault rifles do require other classes with the hard hitting weapons to punch holes in the armor, the snipers lvl 6 skill “weakspot” the berserker level 2 “armor break” can really help with this, otherwise the hellcannon (phoenix point default heavy weapon) is pretty solid bridge as it cuts off 10 armor at the very least (hellcannon has damage penetration, a direct hit might hit multiple sections shredding armor more then once) and if that doesn’t work, chuck grenades at it shredding 4 at a time.

where assault rifles shine is the combination between range and damage per action point (20+ range 80-90 dmg/AP…this is double the damage per AP on a sniper), meaning that if armor is gone…you can plink targets to death very effectively from a relatively safe distance.

for lairs, first you need to locate the most likely location of the spawnery…it will always be in one of the map corners and always in a pit. this alone narrows the options…as there needs to be space at the bottom of the pit…any rocks means that the spawnery isn’t there.
second you need to close, speed and mobility…or stealth…dash, jetpacks and gear that gives speed bonuses., rally the troops for extra AP’s and frenzy skills to buff speed. jetpacks are especially useful here as lairs can have sections that cannot be accessed unless you break down a wall or hop a chasm…this goes both ways as this might occasionally also give a safe spot for a heavy to jump into while en route to the spawnery location.
stealth can work as the lair isn’t “active” when you spawn in, stacking + stealth gear will allow you to move a fair bit closer to the target before mad dashing in for the kill. 100% stealth (possible by combining the “thief” trait with the infiltrator class) will effectively trivialize the mission.
once there you need to kill it, the body doesn’t have armor, has 300 HP and lowers the spawnery’s max HP to 100…this makes shotguns, PDW’s, MG’s and assault rifles prime weapons to take it down. 2 bursts with an AR unit that has the trooper skill or 2 taps with a shotgun will do the trick, a single deceptor MG burst will also end it.

4

Lairs

If you can get a line of sight on the Chiron (artillery), that’s where a sniper/heavy level 7 using rage burst can one shot it. Other than that, you have to find some place to hide from it (not easy) while killing the pandorans that are coming and survive 5 turns I think for it to be out of shells.
I usually send an assault with lots of speed and willpower to kill the spawnery.

Overwatch

You have to check the cone’s shape on the ground. If you have a wall blocking, you will not see the edges of the cone. This means that as soon as the toe comes you shoot, and don’t get a good one. I try to have full cones visible so when the enemy comes into it … BAM!!
You can play on the cone’s width by holding CTRL (in case you didn’t know). And try setting the distance to something where you can reliably shoot something. Setting a long cone with a shotgun is unlikely to do anything.

Training Facility

Try to play with only one team to get them to a high level asap.
The rest can stay in the base to train. Build training facilities in the base where you keep all your troops. You can’t be in two places at the same time, but that means you also saved on resources to build a second ship and bought recruits instead.

Assaults

Assault rifles are crap until you can get the Piranha from New Jericho. And even then, you’re better off with shotguns (Mercy, Iconoclast, Harrower).
Assaults need dash and shotgun. I don’t think anything else is viable.

Technicians

Haven’t experimented with them yet.
They do have a great ability to heal body parts during a mission. It’s very situational.
They can deploy turrets and repair both turrets and vehicules.
I should try to see what they can do and how to make them work for the team. The other classes seem so much better for getting rid of the enemy BEFORE you have your limbs needing repairs.

Infiltrators

When they hit level 6, they are beasts. First of all, they are stealthy, so Pandorans can come quite close and not even notice them. At level 6, they have the capacity to return to stealth (if you lost stealth in the first place). The damage they do when in stealth is doubled (so give them a shotgun, get close and kill). Dual classed with assault to get dash for extra movement or retreat.
A bit later in the game I like having a airship with two infiltrators inside to explore the map. The advantage is that if you get ambushed, you can usually evade the pandorans without even firing.

Priests

They protect your troops from psychic powers, they detect enemies in 15 tiles, they can panic or mindcontrol enemies.
And they can use mindcrush for extraordinary results. You just move in the middle of a bunch of Pandorans and kill all of them by spamming mindcrush. Of course it costs 6 willpower, so you need to count to know if you have enough to kill them before running out (killing them gives you back some willpower - take it into account).
I had a priest with 27 willpower, so able to spam it a lot.

Berserkers

Haven’t yet found anything really great about them. Haven’t experimented all that much.
The big thing is that their level 2 ability is “Armor break” and it is not limited to a particular weapon type. So you can give them a grenade launcher and it will break the armor for all parts hit by the grenade. Here is the shredding you want.

Sniper/Heavy

Dual classing a sniper into heavy (and vice versa).
At sniper level 5 you get “Marksman” that drastically improve your aim.
At heavy level 7 you get “Rage burst” where you empty your full clip. It is not limited to heavy weapons, you can use it with a sniper rifle that has more ammunition and still does lots of damage.
With this, you can one shot a queen or seriously cripple it to the point that a single shot is enough to finish it.

Hope this will help you go through maps more easily.

5

All of the above is good advice. I just have a few more things to add.

COVER
This isn’t XCOM - you don’t end your turn when you fire, and cover can’t protect you against really accurate Nasties - but Line of Sight can :smirk:
So don’t take cover directly at the corner of a wall, unless you plan to set up Overwatch. Instead, take cover one tile back from the corner. Now the Nasties can’t see you, and if they can’t see you the only things they can fire at you are grenades and Chiron bombs.

When your turn comes round, step up to the corner, take your shot then step back. If you have enough AP left, set up a short-range Overwatch to take out anything that runs around the corner to fire at you.

SNIPERS
I love Snipers, especially with the Synedrion Pythagoras.
On their turn, use Quick Aim to take their first shot. This gives them enough AP to take an aimed shot (at eg. that pesky Siren’s head), then set up an Overwatch cone to cover the key access or spawn points. If you have 2 or 3 Snipers setting up a Killzone, this gives you the luxury of Recovering one while the others keep firing, allowing you to keep the WP flowing.

In Lairs, I Dash my Sniper(s) to the top(s) of the pillars, where they get a view of the entire Lair and can pick off the most dangerous enemies before they can get close. Remember to drop them back down again if the Nasties get in range, though.

SIRENS
Take out her head - at the cost of everything else, take out her head!
Once her head’s disabled, she can’t Mind Control and she’s damn near uselss - though you need to kill her before she gets into clawing distance.
So whatever else you do, take out her head :exploding_head:

CHIRONS
This is going to sound weird, but the best defence against Worm Lobbers is arming your Squad with pistols. At worst, the Chiron will lob 3 worms at you for 5 turns, then it’s done (and in a Lair, half of those will disappear down the crevices). A pistol will often allow 1 guy to deal with more than 1 of the pesky things and still move, or fire his primary weapon. Getting the skill which reduces the Overwatch cost by 1 means he can do that AND then set up an OW cone to take out the third worm if someone else hasn’t already. Grenades are also great worm clearers, especially if they’re bunched together.

The only real defence against Goo & Explosive Chirons is buildings or overhang cover. Think of them as artillery and react accordingly - get under cover asap. If you can, get a LoS with your Sniper on its head and take that out. Disabling its head reduces its Will, which it needs to fire. Once its will is low enough, killing any Nasty on the map will panic the Chiron, rendering it useless.

THE SCARAB
I used to think this was a waste of resources. Not any more. The Scarab has several very tasty uses:

  1. It’s your artillery. Identify the most dangerous thing on the map and shell the f!*£ out of it. You probably won’t kill it (unless it’s a Crabbie), but with luck you’ll disable some of its abilities - and more importantly, shred its armour so that your Assaults & Snipers can take it out before it gets close to you.
  2. It’s a mobile troop transport. Hop your Heavy into it, drive up to your target and pop your Heavy out the back at close range. If you have someone with Rally the Troops, your Heavy even gets to take a shot before she hops back into the Scarab (which costs nothing). This works equally well with a Shotgun Assault, who spends 2 APs hopping out of the bus, 2 APs killing something, and 0 APs hopping back into the bus again. If your Heavy needs a turn to set up, either drive behind a wall, or use the Scarab as a LoS screen - the Nasties will usually target the Scarab over a Squaddie by default.
    It’s even nicer if you have a Tech, because he gets to hop out, repair the Scarab, then hop back in again to make room for someone else to hop out and do their thaing :sunglasses:
  3. Whether this is a bug or intentional I do not know, but Sirens cannot mind control Squaddies hidden in vehicles! So you can use #2 above to get your Heavy/Shotgun dudes right up close and personal and blow her f!£ing head off!

GRENADE LAUNCHERS
Not massively accurate and heavily nerfed cos we abused them so much in the BBs, but still very useful. I generally run my 2 non-Snipers with GLs as secondary weapons. It means they can hide behind walls, out of LoS and lob grenades over half the map, shredding armour and destroying enemy weapons before they even get to see me.
Be careful to step away from the wall before launching the grenade though, or you’ll get serious blowback.

That’s it. My A Team is 3 Sniper/Assaults, 1 Heavy/Assault and one support Dude (usually a Tecchie). The Heavy & support carry GLs as secondary weapons, and the support also carries reloads for the GL & the Heavy’s Primary Weapon. I use an 8-man transport which I stole from Anu, so they get a Scarab as well. Seems to work :blush:

I don’t go for the Heavy/Sniper combo because I refuse to cheese Rage Burst which I consider fatally broken. However, if you want the game to be a LOT easier, get yourself a Lvl 7 Heavy/Sniper with Rage Burst and a Sniper Rifle, then nothing on the map is safe.

6

Hey, thanks for all the Christmas replies! :smile:

I didn’t know you could adjust cone width at all! was that mentioned in the tutorial somewhere or is it something you simply have to somehow “find out”?

Recruitment

One thing I maybe did wrong was expanding my roster to late down the line…when most of my guys were about lvl 4/5, I still only had 8 personnel-slots on my one base, 2 of them filled with lvl 1/2 rookies, so I figured if I got more than 1 of my dudes taken out while having such a hard time in missions I would enter a downward spiral, taking even more casualties as the troop quality drops (had that happen to me on several playthroughs in X-COM 2)…also went the route of crippling crabs one by one by first shooting their weapon arms off, then killing only the ones that didn’t retreat without a weapon…maybe I suggested the system with all the 0-death-victories I “needed a little more challenge” O.o

Equipment

One thing I see getting mentioned all over the forums is “first stealing the Anu airship” with the 8 slots…sounds VEEERY useful…problem is: I kinda roleplay my campaigns, so I focus on dealing with Pandorans only as long as noone starts trouble himself; I never even once raided a haven, only building and researching (reverse-engineering) what I found or got through recruits/rewards…is that supposed to be a “must have” that is considered natural in the game balance?

Vehicles

I tried out the Scarab…trying to make up with it for missing recruits when I just started my second base and didn’t have enough living quarters for a full second squad yet…the rocket salvo is a nice atrillery with good aoe & range…thing is:
After 6 (?) shots it runs out of ammo, cant even ram enemies, so I can only use it as mobile cover or to waltz down enemy cover so my guys get a free line of sight…which is utility, yes, but only if I had actually had the damage to kill them fast enough in the first place…at least in lairs my problem was that, out of return-fire-range, most enemies took to many shots to finally kill them…found the 3 soldiers it would replace way more useful; 2 heavies with grenade launchers would have about the same effect, able to take cover in buildings & have ammo for days, adding killing power…maybe if enemies crowded more, but as it is now I only get 2 enemies in the rocket area at best…

Thanks a lot guys!

7

That’s where the training facility comes into play. Your troops continue gaining experience while sitting comfortably in the base. And they stack, so if you build 4 your soldiers gain 8 XP each hour (I think). They basically gain more XP by staying in the base than doing missions. And once you hit 50% with New Jericho you add 50% with one of their research, so 12XP per hour.

I did a whole play-through without stealing anything and finishing 100% with all factions (so I could experience all endings with the same play-through). The point of stealing a ship is to spare a big amount of resources, so mostly useful for higher difficulties I guess.

Only “vehicle” I built was a mutog, for base defense (it has/had a bug for missions with extraction). But in the end, I never needed to use it so not sure about how efficient it is. It’s strange that they removed the “ram” ability from vehicles. I didn’t build more because I rather have 3 soldiers ; it’s much more flexible. For base defense you’re not limited in the number of soldiers so they have their use there with technicians to repair them.

8

The Scarab is only worth it if you have an 8-man ship. Then you are fielding an A-Squad of 5, plus artillery and a mobile Siren screen that allows you to drive right up to the bitch, pop out the back and blow her freakin’ head off without getting Mind Controlled in the process (remember to hop back into the bus when you’re done ;0)

Personally I think Training Facilities are OP, but it is very useful to have new recruits sitting at home getting even more skilled than your guys out in the field, for absolutely no risk.

TBH, I’m with you on the ‘don’t pick on the Factions’ thing - I’m behind the research curve in my game because it took me an age to find a Faction that didn’t demand I sabotage someone else before they would work with me. However, I really don’t like the over-privileged ‘rich priests in mansions, everyone else in hovels’ medieval culture of Anu, so I had no compunction in stealing one of their airships. (I also have a sneaking suspicion that they’re working with the Pandas, but don’t spoil it for me).

9

Alright, gonna go for my second try then with a bit more intel, thanks a bunch guys! :slight_smile:

One last question though, since I couldn’t really find any definitive info with my google-fu: What exactly is the “beginner difficulty” for Phoenix Point?
On “Veteran” it’s advertised as the difficulty for “people familiar with the Strategy genre”, which is what I started my first game on…other games (like X-COM) I mostly play and finish on normal to get a challenging, but not overwhelming expierence, not really an Ironman or hardcore gamer^^
Or should I rather try with “Rookie”?

10

Quite frankly I started rookie, eventhough I have thousands of hours with Firaxis XCOM I & II and Long Wars I & II.
I wanted to see the story without having to worry too much about perfect tactics.

In the end, some missions still needed to think a lot. Maybe because I had over-commited some of my troops wanting to finish fights quick. Also using the “sniper/heavy” rage burst combo, Queens and Chirons weren’t a big problem (I started a new play-through on Normal and I won’t be using OP stuff).

I don’t know what the differences are but I currently don’t feel like my normal run is harder than my rookie one. My soldiers just have 2 less strength.

11

For me Scarab work very well with Nest, not with Lair because paths for them are too bad if even available, and they are too weak to sustain a Lair pressure.

I would suggest try do Lair in two assaults:

  • First you just focus on scouting identifying where is the target, then evac.
  • Secondly you come back prepared to kill the target knowing where it is. For now I admit I didn’t applied it yet, so I still don’t know if it can work or if there’s a regeneration on the Lair. If so I would suggest just cheat, save when you enter, scout to find location, reload start again knowing where the target is, sigh.

Otherwise I have read a suggestion that seems very very good, I tried it and it seems be something:

  • Focus on disarming enemies and never kill them, that way no respawning. It’s seems work very well, that doesn’t make Lairs easy but it’s something.
12

I’ve been starting my games with stealing the first 8 seat aircraft that isn’t at a recruiting haven. Starting to feel it’s a bit of a trap though, as the reaction time for that thing to get to a haven under attack is usually way too slow. I’d suggest sticking to the six seater since it has twice the speed of the 8 seat. Down the road when you have multiple 6 man crews conveniently placed to handle any haven defenses it can be worth having the 8 man team to take on the truly nasty missions, such as an extreme difficulty scavenge that sits within the mist zone.

About to start up a new game, and if i recall New Jericho has a nice 7 seat craft with much higher speed than Anus 8 seat, so suppose i will give that one a try.

13

It’s also possible that just use two aircraft is the way to do. The point would be that use them to multiply missions will skyrocket difficulty a lot based on number of combats missions done. Instead use them to bring a bigger team in each mission, they will just give you a bigger team or eventually an option of a vehicle plus a fair sized team. You won’t do more missions but each one will be a bit easier thanks to the better power bring in.

1 Like
14

Hey there, just some feedback after trying out some of the tricks/ strategies you guys told me about, helped a lot really!

Shotguns

Well…seems no encounter so far has been ANY issue since I switched to Iconoclast-shotguns from the Anu…why worry about return fire from a crab when you can just dash up into their faces with every shotgun-assault, atomize the heads of 2 each and then use the gained willpower to dash back into cover, leaving no survivors?
I really feel a lot less frustrated after finally being able to win most battles without having to save-scum, but at the same time I feel like - if they don’t get a boost or huge upgrade lategame - assault rifles need to be fixed…don’t know, maybe better accuracy or more bullets per salvo; rightnow I don’t see any reason at all to take assault rifles over shotguns, the drawbacks just by far outweigh the benefits & I don’t like the concept of “Timmy Cards” in games; I just think every weapon should be suited best for at least 1 or 2 situations, there shouldn’t be a weapon that’s simply BETTER than the rest…but maybe just me prefering diversity in strategy games.

Overwatch Cone

I didn’t even know the adjustment option for the cone’s shape was a thing; now with tailored overwatch zones & shotguns it became A LOT more useful, thanks guys!
Also makes it feel a bit more like a tactical choice: Should I spread the overwatch wider, risking to take worse shots? Or limit it to small, clear area, risking to have enemies go around it?

*Lair tipps

Well…I guess it’s good it’s a good thing that lairs don’t feel unwinnable now, but…rightnow I just hold down the fort with 6/7 out of 8 guys (bringing 2 aircrafts for lairs), taking pot shots at any alien that sticks its nose out in the spawnzone-area, while 1 or 2 of my heavy/sniper dudes jump around the map with jetpacks, locate the hatchery and take it out in 2 turns almost undisturped with 2 Hellcannon + quick aim for 4 HELL-shots or grenades per round…feels kinda cheesy to be honest; would prefer the hatchery to be a bit more randomized in location (NOT in 1 of the 2 predictable, opposite corners of the map) and better accessable, but in return better guarded, maybe even 2 different structures; that way it would feel more like an actual fight/ assault to a base and less like a shell-game where you just have to check off the obvious spots in 2 to 3 rounds until you get lucky…but could just be me feeling that way.

What do you guys think about it?

Greetings,
Radoras.

15

New Jericho’s Piranha assault rifle gets 20 penetration (and I don’t remember the damage dealt). But shotguns are still so much better.
Once I research “Triton Autopsy” (which is top priority early game), I build some “Mercy” for my assaults and never look back to assault rifles.

100% agree on the fact that assault rifles should be better. Rule of thumb, if you can’t one shot an Arthron, don’t use it … or suffer the return fire.

For lairs, you still need to beware the mind-controlling Sirens. That’s why I use an assault with lots of speed, willpower & dash him. 2 shots with a shotgun and the hatchery is history.

16

Hello! Nice to know you feel better about the game))
About assault rifles: my assault/berserkers usually pack one combined with iconoclast shotgun. The reason is the rifles are so much more precise at medium distaces (especially the Synedrion one). I mostly use them agains targets with already disabled armor and small targets like worms and brainsuckers. Sometimes use them to finish already wounded foes to conserve shotgun ammo and to avoid reloading.

About the worms: they have so few WP that you can usually mind controll all of the for free (if your priest has line of sight of course) and send them to self-destruct.

17

The piranha is 30X5 with 20 penetration. damage wise solid…sacrificing some damage per AP for the armor pen, following the bulldog line (40X4) definitely not my favorite as it sacrifices damage per AP in order to deal with armor…something I generally remove with other weapons before I open up with AR’s

but I agree nothing is really going to beat the iconoclast (other shotguns are slightly weaker…but the same tactic will be applied) if distance to the target is left out of the equation, 10X40 with a 2AP fire cost. stick it up an arthrons crack and pull the trigger. and if that doesn’t kill the enemy…we are talking about late game “tank” arthrons that have 20-40 armor all over and like 360 HP… no weapon in the game 1-shots that without +dmg support (well the deceptor will if you get it all to land on the 20 armor bit). and it doesn’t take a lot of said support to get to 1-shot-the-chiron level of power.

while AR’s can actually be used from a reasonable range they seem to fall between snipers that have excellent armor penetration abilities at relatively low damage per AP but can also systematically dismember a target with their massive damage per shot and extreme accuracy, and shotguns that simply decimate targets at point blank range if they have any hitzone with armor below 20. neither of the above 2 weapon groups needs any real support and will work on its own…while AR’s desperately need something to strip the armor off the target before their trait combination starts to shine.

I will still keep using them, I like the 1-2 interplay between the different weapons. the game needs a balance pass anyway, so I really hope they buff AR’s a bit while dealing with the obvious problems (sniper rifle rage burst anyone…or 100% stealth infiltrators with their sneak attack perk…how about our extremely “effective” vehicles dripping sarcasm on the latter one )