Phoenix Point declining player-base

Phoenix Point Game Feedback
141

To become unbeatable in PP you don’t need to know a meta game.
I won PP on Legend with extreme self restriction (e.g. no multiclass or raids, even ironman and many more)
I mainly did the following things:

  • Use turrets as often as possible (ammo is free) and the damage as an “additional” soldier is unrivaled
  • Use grenade launchers (it doesn’t kill immediately, but incapacitates opponents without line of sight)
  • Stand around with the vast majority of soldiers in the initial square (turrets set up / bomber and sniper) and scout with 1 soldier.
    - In addition, but not necessary: If you have the laser mount, you are the big stranger from the other side of the map. But only makes the game even more trivial.
  • And that´s it! What I do is NOT COMPLEX, rather trivial! No matter what type of enemy and with most types of mission (except for nest and anu village) scary successful.

The bad thing is, I don’t even use the terminators!
And back to the XCOM2 comparison. XCOM2 and countless hundreds of hours I NEVER thought of “SELF RESTRICTIONS” to make the game enjoyable. The truth is, I DO NOT play any games on Legend at PP it was an exception recently because I needed a challenge somehow. But I also have to say that my first PP playthrough on veteran was not easier, but rather more difficult (everything is new).

The problem I personally see with PP in addition to the triviality through the OP skills is that PP is rather hard to learn but easy to master.
For example, with XCOM2

  • easy difficulty is REALLY EASY. (The opponents intentionally miss and an accidentally activated second pod only runs back and forth without attacking)
  • If a casual player doesn’t want to think, he is better off with XCOM2, because the “run to the cover and then shoot” method is easy to understand and works MUCH better with XCOM2.
  • The basic attacks (normal shot without skills) are a little more effective with XCOM2 than with PP, so that one is not so dependent on super skills. For example, Rapid Clearance can only be activated once per mission in XCOM2 and does less damage after each kill. How is it in PP? We all know. Another example: Bombs are 100% accurate with XCOM2, but are limited to 2-3 shots per mission, so that the game cannot be trivialized by simply standing around on the initial spot and bombing everything away from the other side of the map.

Overall, these are the reasons I’m playing XCOM2 again, even though I’ve played it 10 times longer than PP. XCOM has a super duper casual core mechanic (PP is there way better). But if you already KNOW the game, XCOM is hard to master and that’s why I can’t add another player base point to PP.

142

In your first gameplay? I dont think so… at all.

yes, you may have won on leggend with severe restrictions… after playing hundreds of hours and therefore knowing the meta-game perfectly. So… no.

Saying the game is very easy to you now that you mastered the game (as happens with every game ever), and them claiming that you can easily be overpowered being a new player is a completely pointless claim that paints a completely wrong idea on how the game really is for non experts.

Im kind of tired of allways hearing the same arguments from hardcore players in all games, and only from hardcore players.

Im not saying the game is very hard or hard. Im jus saying “I won PP on Legend therefore the game is trivial” is not a valid argument. If it was it would be true for absolutely all games cause in all communities I know veteran players make the same claims.

This is also a completely unhealthy claim for any community. “We dont want casual players here” is the kind of elitist group thinking that will only result on the game having few players and its developement being cut short, which harm us all.

There is place for many types of player here, it has to be if the game wants any chance to keep going.

That does not mean at all to disregard veteran players or not to address the concerns of veterans, many of which are valid. But the concerns of less experienced players should be addressed too. Because many of them are perfectly reasonable as well, and making the game more accesible benefits us all.

The game has very unfair aspects that need to be taken care of, and also some completely OP styles of play that also need to be addressed. Come on, this is not hard at all.

143

Actually, since @walan and I (among others here) have been raising similar issues last year, shortly after epic release, I think you are not being entirely fair on this point.

When the game was first released it was quite different, in that it was both much harder (because there was no gradual Panda evolution) but also much easier, because the stats and the skills were a complete mess, to the point where it didn’t require any meta knowledge to run into a Terminator build: you just did.

You were playing normally, for the first time, and after some 30 hours suddenly you realized that you had squaddies who could clear maps singlehandedly in the first turn. It happened to me, playing on Veteran. I then played on Hero with quite a few self restrictions, and then on Legend, by which point the list was a mile long.

PP is the only game of this type that I play on Legend (nevermind the only game I play with self restrictions). I have never finished any of the Firaxis XComs (or the original X-Com) on the highest difficulty, despite having spent more time playing them than PP, so I understand where @Walan is coming from.

However, a first time player now (post YOE) will have a very different experience.

1 Like
144

So SG have been addresing the issues with the balance and you have been actually listened to. ¿What is the issue then? It only shows SG are actually improving the game.

How that makes fair your previous claims?

So again, your concerns come from the perspective of veteran players, in your case of someone with more than 30 hours of gameplay in PP in hundreds or thousands of hours in games of the same genre. Which is a valid perspective but not the only one that matters… you seem to be actually supporting my claim, and admitting the game is not trivial for unexperienced players so… yes as I said veteran’s players have valid concerns that should be addressed and we agree on that.

My issue with your comment is that you were disregarding any possible claim of new players, and that is not healthy.

Difficulty options can be expanded, campaign length options can be added, OP playstyles can be removed, more useful skills can be added to improve the underpowered ones, and more clear in game instructions can be included, too punishing situations can be ironed, and the game can be made more accessible… I reject the claim that the right way to go is to choose one side and ignore the other. The game can be improved both for veterans and newcomers and both should have a place in the game. That is the point.

Saying the game is just too casual is not a valid argument. Because it is not, the design is clearly not focussed on being casual. If only the main focus of the design is to be a more realistic non casual XCOM. The problems from veterans come from balance, and do not require to make the game less acessible or just harder. That is the point.

145

They are, and imo they listen to everybody - casual and hardcore players alike, so I don’t have an issue with that.

My point was that on EGS release it wasn’t the case that you had to had won the game previously and have 100s of hours in it and know the meta inside out to find the game too easy (more than easy, broken): it just was for someone familiar with the genre (not a hardcore player).

And here I would say there is some truth to that the playerbase suffered from the game being “too easy” for players coming from the TBS spectrum (as opposed to those coming from RPGs), because many players when they reached that 30h mark (which in PP is really like a third of the game) and saw their guys teleporting all over the map just quit then and there.

As to the difficulty of the game now… Well, it’s hard for me to judge because those of us who have been playing since release do know the game inside out. I think it’s a fact that there are far more players that find the game too hard than there are those that find it too easy. However, that probably says more about the audience that PP captured rather than being an objective assessment of its difficulty.

Of course new players, as in new to the genre, deserve consideration, no discussion there.

2 Likes
146

OK. I’ll try it again.
As you have probably noticed, English is not my native language, so maybe it was the reason you didn’t understand or misunderstand some things.

see here:

I played about 100 hours.
Is this example really metagame knowledge?

Am I using something that is invisible to the player and not explained by the game? Is this method extremely difficult or very rare to combine. OK, I’ll pass “free ammo for turrets” as “meta” here, but the other things, really?

see here again

Is 100h PP already hardcore? PP is my second squad based TBS after XCOM2 (no XCOM1, no original X-COM or similar). If that’s hardcore, is it almost everyone?
Well, so I have the “hardcore glasses” on. What makes you feel that you have the “casual glasses” on?

The OP skills in PP make every difficulty setting seem unimportant, because YES everything becomes trivial. Many didn’t want to believe it until they saw a few videos about it.

Here you have completely misunderstood me. I have nothing against casual players. Firaxis has at least solved it better to combine casual, vets and maybe even hardcore together (second wave, super OP skills are at least often not repeatable or with cooldowns, mod support).

In many of my other posts and by other “so-called hardcore players” it is always said that “easy difficulty” should be BABY EASY. The difficulty levels in PP still differ far too little.

147

Winning in Legend with a lot of self restriction is very easy to do, except maybe that final mission (something I really struggled with in the new Xcoms). I didn’t BEAT the game the first few times through (At the time the game was “harder” but so bugged I couldn’t get through the 2nd-last story mission without the game locking up endlessly - admittedly I probably would’ve failed the final mission) I wasn’t aware of the powerful combos in the game yet, mostly because I was restricting myself from mutations - this was before BNT or LOTA. I hadn’t researched everything since I didn’t like the idea of allying with everyone, and IMMEDIATELY found the diplomacy system to be a disappointment, so I tried to restrict my ability to get ahead by just focusing on one faction (something I’ve continued to do since). It was about my 3rd campaign, but I didn’t get past the 3rd week in the other ones once I realized how awkward the Diplomacy system was and began restricting myself from doing their missions. I’d refined the early game slightly since I knew what to expect and got ahead of myself by about a week. I avoided researching everything that didn’t seem to matter and I was at the end of the game by the end of the 2nd month. The strat I was resorting to for nearly everything at the time was merely Boom Blast. I had so many grenades/rockets… I stole so many resources from the Disciples of Anu who were a complete joke to annihilate.

The game just felt easy, right off the bat. I’ve only ever played Legend. First time, I didn’t get around to beating it and began restricting myself by 3rd week. 2nd time was on the 2nd week. After that I got to the end… but couldn’t beat due to bugs. Came back after many rebalances and fixes, and further restricted myself… more… and more… and more… and more… AND MORE… to the point where I wasn’t even equipping my soldiers or leveling them… and Legend was/is STILL too easy! … but the game became more and more fun with each restriction. I’ve always found it odd that the Legend difficulty is awkwardly balanced. Some things are done to “create difficulty” but are more so just tiresome and annoying (faster evolution, less resources, less aircraft), whereas all the things that would make the game more difficult don’t/barely get touched (powerful armor, too many stats, powerful abilities), on top of them making enemies more easy (less armor) and dumb (stand out in the open more often now) over time.

I’m on the side that argues that this game is mainly geared towards casuals, because the “Legend” difficulty setting isn’t being done appropriately, and the game feels like Firaxis Xcom on Easy. Game is short, but bloated with repetitive missions, nearly all of which can be done with a single simple-minded strat. Nevermind all the other more powerful strats/exploits that make it even easier.

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148

It is definitely not targeted for hardcore players. But is it really for casuals? I mean, there are unbalanced stuff that can give you a way to cheese through the game. So, is the game easy peasy lemon squeezy, by design to target casuals, or do we still just struggle with balance issues?

In my opinion, game may become casual easy, but it is definitely not designed to be such. The very first month or two will be a real struggle for a new person. If a casual player won’t find a strength and resilience to restart a game few times he will not reach the easy part of the game at all. Soldiers early game are not expendable at all, loosing two of them will result in a very painful experience, regardless of difficulty setting.

I am a hardcore player and there are still some quirks in the game that makes me want to cry out loud. Are you really so sure that casual player will be resilient enough to grit ther teeth and continue? :stuck_out_tongue:

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149

That’s the problem I keep calling.
At the beginning the game is very tactical and quite overwhelming for casuals. For example, you have to compete against heavy armor (Pure) at the very beginning, which is not scratched by an AR alone. Here the simple “run to cover and shoot” will lead to the first frustration. While shredding is possible through multiple tools, it will certainly present newbys with a challenge. Even worse, if the newbys start too quickly with LotA stuff, frustration is inevitable.
From midgame the game suddenly turns into “superpowers fantasy game” to which the casuals either have no access (economy struggle, big losses) or they have given up because of frustration. The Vets, who enjoyed the first part, get a change in genre from midgame on, which again confuses. So both sides are not mentioned here, unfortunately.
Anything would be possible, but it just isn’t supposed to be.

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150

To be fair, they pumped up HP and also armor of the pandorans in the past, iirc with release of LotA. Before the highest HP for Arthrons and Tritons was 340, now they go up to 440. Scyllas got extreme HP buff from roughly 2k now up to around 4k and even more, also Chirons from 700 to 1.000.

I will not excuse that they didn’t touch the extreme damage output PX operatives can gain (they have done at least a bit also here), just to clarify.

151

There should be more balancing forthcoming. Let’s see what they do.

3 Likes
152

So I am right. Why are you trying to disprove what I said, with a claim of your own which proves what I said?

Do I sense a pattern here?. Why the players that beat leggend after several playtroughts which usual have also hundreds or thousand of hours in XCOM and other strategy games keep claiming that beating Legend with a lot of self restriction is very easy to do for newcomers and therefore the game is trivial?

Yeah… no. Exagerating and lying does not help either. EDIT: This is not a lie, was indeed posible at launch. But not anymore and I still think does not help the conversation now.

The point is most of the players do not have 100h+ of experience in the game, obvioulsy. And some of them may not have experience with XCOM at all. My point is that is not fair to pretend new players have the same perspective on the game that players with 100h+ of PP game. This is not hard, guys.

Also yes, players with 100h of experience in PP can be considered at least veterans and no, not almost everyone has 100h of experience in PP. This is a completely dishonest statement.

100 hours in the game (I think you may be even rounding down quite a bit), previous experience in XCOM, active user of the forum (hundreds of hours of read time and 16000 posts read…)? watching veteran playthroughs videos, being in the 0.4% of players that beat Legend, and in the subset of those players who use self-restrictions?

Well, yes. Obviously yes.

Regardless if the last one is kind of a joke, the point he was making is still there (a point that after a fruitful discussion where he admitted none of his arguments held any ground was still hold regardless).

The thing is, these are completely invalid claims, and still again and again hardcore players keep making them and trying to exclude new players from the game. How unfair is that?

And you are ignoring that you are being listened to, and OP skills are constantly being nerfed and removed. To the point of frustration of many other players that find the game difficult. And you are also ignoring that even the devs said on the Feedback tool that easy difficulties have been mostly disregarded.

Also you plainly saying that many players need to see veteran gameplays to believe PP can be chessed seems like quite an admission that meta knowledge of the game is required.

Why are you ignoring what I said. Winning in Legend with a lot of self restriction may not be difficult for you now. This is a pointless claim, and remember less of a half of a 1% of players have beated PP on leggend in total. Saying something does not make it so, and your perspective is not the perspective of a new player, which was the point.

Not even hardcore veteran players agree with you on your perspective.

And I myself have more than a hundreds of hours and completely disagree with your statement (not refering to this quote). Why keep trying invalidate the perspective of other players.

Trying to address dishonest statements is honestly getting into the frustration territory.

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Please don’t do that. It’s completely unnecessary to accuse anyone of lying.

I’m not sure why you are being so defensive on this subject, since I’m not attacking you. All I tried to do was put in context some of the things being said here so that you could understand where they are coming from.

FYI, the sudden ability to teleport was amply discussed on this forum at the time. The max speed stat was 25, with gear/mutations it went to >32. Dash could be used an unlimited number of times, at first just costing 4WP (no AP), and then costing 3 WP and 1 AP as now but granting 75% of total movement with each casting. Even before factoring in stuff like Frenzy and Bloodlust (which are arguably more meta), an assault could teleport almost anywhere on the map, and with Rapid Clearance and the shotguns before nerfing (45 * 10 damage), Pandorans before the HP boost, kill everything on the map.

It was even better because you had stuff like Rally the Troops, that at the expense of 2AP gave 1 AP to everyone in the squad regardless of positioning. Then you had electric reinforcement that stack. Or Mental Crush that didn’t cost AP. And Rage Burst… And all the buffs to damage and to accuracy that the game had… And the list goes on and on.

Did you know that around this time last year you could one shoot a Scylla across the map, as long as she was showing a fraction of a pinky? (and she always was, because Citadels were open maps).

If you don’t believe me, go check the threads on the forum from last year.

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This stuff whether somoene has meta knowledge or not is not important. I think this is nothing controversial to say that a game should try to reach out to causal players and at the same make it so that you can play it more than on casual level. I think we all here will agree with that. The real problem is how to achieve that.

I’ve addressed that before by suggesting that different mechanics work differently across difficuly leves. I was said then that the devs have other vision and it’s a must to have them the same across all dificulties. But that’s a suicide if you don’t have modding community. And the result is that you balacing game over and over from too hard to too easy. Because it’s impossible to do them both at the same time. And both casual and experienced players are not happy.

Again why do we have to have all mechanics the same across difficulty levels?

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Because it amounts to making different games, no resources for it.

156

You cannot clean the map in a single turn it is plainly imposible. So I claimed the statement is false. The context of the full post should be very clear on what my meaning was. EDIT: it was posible before.

You can say you are exagerating to make a point which I think was implicit in what I said, but the claim was still false, and therefore does not help at all. That was the point.

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In my book if somehting is not targeted for hardcores, then it is for casuals. :slight_smile: Even if it is punishing more than other titles for casuals.

I can’t agree with this statement. If you will loose all soldiers then sure. But loosing one or two per mission is still possible to not stop the player.

Currenty it is really hard, near the impossible. But after release it was easy. :slight_smile:

158

But what does it take to balance game for one level differently that the other. This is changing variables most of the time. Whatever they did with evolution and current difficuly levels is at the core of this problem. And it can’t be solved by changing it for all of them. Because you again lose one or other group of players or if you try to do all at once you make some blob for nobody.

159

This is a black and white fallacy. So no.

You are kind of saying that every player that does not beat the game in leggend is a casual. Redefining the term to inlcude 99.6% of the players. I reject your claim and I think is totally untrue and unfair.

160

You are wrong. It was entirely possible to clear the whole map using a single operative in a first turn. Many of us did it, and you can find plenty of videos of it.

It’s still possible, btw, but it does require a lot meta and it doesn’t work on all maps.