Phoenix Point declining player-base

Phoenix Point Game Feedback
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That is the part I disagree with. In my opinion, all the differences between PP and XCOM:

  • PP not having weapon and armor progression that trivializes the game as it progresses
  • PP having a more complex cover system
  • PP having a more complex overwatch system
  • PP having a realistic ballistic system instead of a RNG approach.
  • PP having a much longer campaign
  • PP having more emphasis on ability combinations (regardless if some OP combination exist) instead of all soldiers having OP abilities that unlock
  • PP having less emphasis on cinematics and more emphasis on tactics (regardless if those do not always work)
  • The fact that in PP aim, health and damage do not increase linearly as soldiers gain experience
  • Less emphasis of PP on looking cool without photo mode and accessibility.
  • PP having all enemies being an actual threat instead of having trivial enemies together with more complex ones (but none as hard as the more complex enemies in PP).
  • PP not having a hero system
  • Being easier on PP to lose soldiers and harder to replace them.
  • More complex resource management.
  • More complex (even if it is not that better) diplomacy system
  • PP having more bases, and soldiers to manage.
    …

Are in my opinion in the opposite direction.

I argue that the focus on casual play and accessibility is what made XCOM popular, and the less casual focus of PP is what makes it less popular. Other reasons exist, mainly mods.

I actually think that PP needs to improve on accessibility and difficulty options regardless if that increases the appeal for casual players. I don’t think at all that more attention to casual players would decrease the appeal of PP, quite the contrary.

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122

I completely agree, PP has all this what in FiraXCOM is more ‘casualised’.

But I guess @Yokes will also agree on these points, just that FiraXCOM isn’t the right piece of game he would take to compare in terms of ‘please casuals’.

IMO PP wants to be more complex than FiraXCOM but also wants to please the casual gamers at the same time, they literally tried to square the circle. I would not say that they completely failed but it is … hmmm … an unlucky mix.

But I still enjoy the game very much, so from my perspective they have done many things the right way even if there are also many things where I think they have to invest more like balance, faster bugfixing … etc pp

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For me Phoenix Point devs tried too hard to be different than Xcom whatever the cost. This need for “being different” is so crutial for them but in doing so they have lost “what’s better for creating superior product”. Sometimes trying to make square wheel only because some other guy uses round one is stupid. Make the better wheel not the square one. And remember that the guy who created the old game is here. So I don’t understand why they were trying so hard to reinvent the wheel.

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IMHO the differences are more subtle. I actually think would not be that hard to increase the appeal of PP to both groups with the game as it is by:

  • An option for a shorter campaign
  • More difficulty options (maybe a normal difficulty before veteran), and second wave options to tune certain difficulty settings.
  • Ironing out the OP combinations, while providing a more effective overwatch and some more useful abilities.
  • Reducing how punishing is to lose soldiers
  • More customization options, with more consistence to increase the atachment to your soldiers (from being able to remove or add helmets in portraits and models so the player associates the soldiers with their portraits; to showing your soldiers doing some iddle time activities)
  • A deeper diplomacy system with faction wars taking each other bases, and the player afecting diplomatic relationships.
  • More map variety (real night, weather effects and enviroments of different climates), mission variety and enemy variety (with new boss types).
  • Improved UI with QoL additions to manage inventary and with more accesibility, and better ingame explanations.
  • Strenght reflecting how many soldiers are deployed in haven defenses by each faction, and more active friendly soldiers in battle.
  • Letting you deploy your soldiers on base defense and adding some base defenses.
  • Ironman mode.
  • Iron out some aim inconsistences that remain (shooting from the top of a building)

Would turn PP in a perfect experience for me and I think masively improve the experience for veterans and harcore fans alike. Of course not all of that can be addresed, but a man can dream and some things of the list are actually being improved.

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The funny thing is that what you listed is quite obvious to all players of the game. What would make the game better? Most poeple will name something from your list. Are those changes so hard to implement? No not really. If you think of it, there are multiple areas of the game that consumed far more resources and time from devs and are giving completely nothing to gameplay. Take current interception thing that was added. Is this really neccessary for good gameplay? Adding 100 hundred pieces that don’t fit together is always worse that only couple that fit perfectly. And maybe plenty of people want air combat in the game. But they need to fit together otherwise it won’t make any good product.

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I like most of the pieces and I dont think they fit that bad, and even If I did not play the new DLC I think air combats are a neat concept that would improve the game with some needed variety. So I disagree on how solid I think the base game is.

Also some of the stuff on the list is definitely not that easy and some of the points in the list are in the priorities of the devs right now (map variety, enemy variety or remove OP combinations).

Regarding everything else, yes I ack and share how frustrating it is that some of these obvious changes have not been implemented (and posibly some that I just did not come with now and just added to the list, such as letting you deploy your soldiers on base defense).

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I think air combats are a neat concept

Yeah. But do they fit in current form? It’s hard to tell now, because they’re new. We’ll see. I have my doubts looking at streams if those air interceptions won’t be next annoyance in the game, the moment we are used to them.

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I share that concern too. As long as its better than the first new XCOM and on pair with the air game on Xenonauts2, I think I may be ok with them.

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To be true there is progression, just not obvious. But still you can finish game with first weapons. Isn’t that for casual play, when you will forget to research something? :slight_smile: True power comes from overpowered skills - which is just a fantasy concept instead of real technology advancement - probably done this way to please role play casual players.

Well, cover in FiraXCOM was really making player calculate his odds. Here it is just an obstacle. Nothing complex from player perspective, even if mechanically it is way more advanced what FiraXCOM has.

Because it requires you to select area? Ok this can cause casuals to be irritated. :slight_smile: But overall this skill is inferior to FIraXCOM counterpart. Here are no skills related to that mechanic.

Just like with cover system. You aim and watch results rather than calculating bonuses which can help you hit the enemy. Perfect for casuals if you would ask me, despite being top notch technically.

Yep this one is tripping for many casuals, that is why so few of them have ended the game. :wink: This one didn’t get well as Snapshot’s design for casuals. :smiley:

Sandox construction where you can connect all skills with each other isn’t particurarly overwhelming. :slight_smile: If there would be many restrictions where one skill is interfering with the other then it wouldn’t be for casuals. :slight_smile:

You mean there is less animations and slow-mo done by the artist means it is for more hardcore player?

Already pointed that out that thanks to magical abilities aim and damage increase exponentially. HP maybe not increase in this way, but still soldiers are bullet sponges more than in FiraXCOM. CASUAL as hell. :wink:

lack of resources to add that to the game. :smiley:

I suppose we play different games then. Most enemies in PP are trivial. It just happens that they have high damage which sometimes can be a trouble if you let enemy get to you. Overcome their HP with high-powered attacks and they die like flies.

Wanted to write about lack of resources, but I suppose here you are right! Bravo. :slight_smile:

I’m not sure if it is easier to lose soldier in Phoenix Point. Replacement can be tricky as developers didn’t described it good enough how to do it. But it is still doable when you know how and when to recruit. I can give you credit here, that casuals can be confused.

You mean what? That everything is expensive to some ridiculous levels, unless you know how to end up in piles of resources? Only ancient resources are complex to manage, but they can also be skipped.

I’m not sure what complex is in getting allied status with all 3 factions in first 4 weeks of game time (so in 30-40% of whole campaign). If diplomacy would really have a strong impact on anything… but it is not. So casual.

You don’t manage bases in Phoenix Point. You activate them, build Satellite Uplink, and you forget about them. Soldier management? You mean that they sometimes need to go back to base to rest? It is even worse than in FiraXCOM. :slight_smile: CASSSSUUUUUUUAAAAALLLLLLLL

So 4 points from you list may be true. Still if Phoenix Point is little less casual than FiraXCOM then it doesn’t mean it is not for casual players.

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Hmm. Like there are some poeple who can find the “game” instead of game finding them sort of thing. But objectively this game is bunch of ideas that don’t fit together. At least that’s my feeling after playing it. And looking at game reception and player numbers this feeling is quite commonly shared.

Saying that the game has still its “moments” and plenty of elements that are very good. It’s on playable level and I understand some poeple can even love it. But the other side which is that the mechanics don’t fit, and multiple of them are just simply broken makes the game basically unplayable for bigger audiance. And even if DLCs are comming out I fear they just adding more stuff that doesn’t fit or doesn’t work. It doesn’t mean that you can’t play PP and have tremendous ammount of fun. You can. What it means is that the game probably won’t go forward and get bigger. They will just stop development at the end of the year. You simply can’t produce DLCs if nobody is buying them. This is quite obvious.

And whys are quite easy to understand.

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As for discussion whether the game is for casuals or not this is completely off the mark. The game should be both for casuals and players who play it, let’s name it, “less causally”. If one group is skipped then playerbase will be lower. And both groups should be able to play the game at the same time. That’s why you have difficulty levels or mods. To allow that. But of course you can have a game in which difficulties don’t do their job or a code that makes modding very hard. Sadly Phoenix Point is one of those games. Xcom does this much better. It’s not about being more casual or not. It’s about trying to attract the most players you can. Both causals and more continous players.

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I mean that XCOM is more about looking cool than about having actual hard decissions. I was talking about the overal focus of the design.

In XCom cover is just reduzed chance to be hit (constant number so no calculation needed), the only decision is hard cover low cover or no cover. And in practise is have high cover if you can, low cover if you dont. In PP you need to worry about line of sight. And you are not just safe behind cover. It is certainly more complex from the player perspective.

I did not say it was better in PP, just more complex as you cannot rely on it, and in fact is not a very friendly system.

You did not calculate bonus in XCOM, you just use a % hit chance, shown on screen for all posible targets, and press fire. In phoenix point you need to worry about where and how you hit. Certainly is more complex and less friendly.

I did not say It was overwhelming, it is just very different and more complex than having every soldier be a God XCOM aproach.

No. In XCOM an upgraded soldier can reliable survive many enemy shots. In PP not. Also it is not true that “magical abilities aim and damage increase exponentially”. You can increase the aim with some abilities (also in XCOM) and there are some OP habilities. Which is far more complex than “you get a upgraded weapon = you gain 20% accuracy”, “you gain exp = you gain accuracy”. In XCOM an upgraded soldier never misses and always (almost) does full damage and can tank shots. None of this is true in PP, so it is less friendly and less casual.

Compared with XCOM? not by far.

Doable, maybe. Easy? not. Losing a soldier in PP is far more punishing than in XCOM, and is far more easy. Not losing a soldier in the entire campaign is trivial in XCOM, it is not in PP.

I mean that you have to manage and assign resources in PP up to grenades and ammunition, and you really dont in XCOM. So PP is more complex, less friendly and less casual. Regardless if resources are didiculously expensive it makes by definition the game harder and less casual.

Base management is fairly equal in XCOM and PP, but in PP you need to manage and move ships and soldiers and have multiple bases. You dont in XCOM, so more complex, yes.

Agree. The point is that the argument: “PP is too casual therefore has few players and is a bad game, but XCOM is more casual therefore has many players and is a good game” does not make any sense. If only the only posible statement is “PP is less casual therefore has less players and should be more casual to have more players”. And still is a completely pointless statement that oversimplifies the issue. Correlation does not mean causation.

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I agree. Circles or squares don’t make something more user-friendly on its own. Overwatch system in Phoenix Point is just weird from tactical point of view. Like it’s very clearly there in current form because devs didn’t want to commit to reworking aiming for overwatch alone. And not because it fits tactical battles. Anyone who played it knows it doesn’t fit. And add to that that you need to manually do that for every turn. If you have 6 guys or more it becomes pain in the ass. But they didn’t care that it is annoying and more tedious than normal xcom overwatch. We have circles after all and can make triangles when overwatching. But what for? In reality It doesn’t add more than it subtracts. It’s obvious so why are such obviously bad mechanics still in the game? If something doesn’t work give something simpler that does work. Throw those manual triangles out and makes it more user friendly. I don’t care if its for casual or not. But it needs to be user friendly and not tedious.

And this is all over the place. Resources, Missions etc. No unequipped button. Like if you tell me that this game had one goal: making it for causal players: I would laugh. Wherever you look there are those tiny annoyances that nobody cared about but make game more tedious long-term so in reality only for casuals. Because if you’d want to play it more it’s unplayable.

I think devs understimate influence of those annoyances and overestimate those intereception modes or whatever they’re adding.
Sadly those interception modes add new annoyances. Now we need to click there for whatever reasons. What does that add to gameplay except new clouds, graphics to look at and buttons to click? Nobody really knows. Making stuff is not enough. You need to present choices that have some meaning. Endless line of meaningless choices, events, triangles or whatever doesn’t make good gameplay expierience.

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134

Overwatch in PP needs more love, I could not agree more.

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Not much to discuss, but I will comment on few points:

Do we? :slight_smile: Most dangerous enemies are melee or artillery. They don’t care about line of sight.

Strange I remember calculating these things based on the skills I have on the disposal and based on the angle of the attack. Maybe it was thanks to some mod. And in Phoenix Point it rarely is hard choice where to aim.

Just dual class every soldier into Infiltrator / Berserker / or Sniper and you will see gods of PP. :slight_smile:

Are you sure? :slight_smile: I guess, that my soldiers living throughout whole campaing having maximum of 200 HP (220 in some cases) have some great luck. I don’t know.

In Phoenix Point even recruits can have 100% accuracy :slight_smile: and if you spend on them Phoenix Project Skill Points then they can have damage boosters coming from perks and proper skill combos from the beginning. :slight_smile: I don’t remember if it is possible in FiraXCOM.

Cost of grenades and ammunition (with exception of end-game tech and explosives) is negligible comparing to other costs. :slight_smile: Only thing that casuals need to learn is to not spam explosive weapons. Later in the game player is having so much resources that even high-end ammunition cost is quite ok.

I’m not sure what are you doing there, but:

  • I obtain up to six aircrafts which have some specific roles and fly in rather not complex algorithm - go to that closest “?” mark and explore. If there is a timed mission popping in range of 3 flights then go there. Not much to think about.
  • I build my squads for an aircraft and they are tied to that aircraft for the rest of the game. No handling anything. Sometimes such aircraft goes back to base to replenish white bars and then it goes for next exploration points. Equipment is teleported around the world so you don’t have to think about equipment management.
  • With bases I already described how it works.
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“Most?” that does not change the argument. I think is fair to say that many enemies have range attacks. So… no.

So there is some OP combination of habilities and classes. That does not change the argument. By the way Infiltrator has been nerfed. Regardless, having a non obvious combination of habilities that you require extensive knowledge of the game to be aware of, that allow you to intentionally exploit it is not exactly what being a casual player is. So… no.

I guess that maybe you are putting all your soldiers as Infiltrator / Berserker / or Sniper ;), or you know so much of the metagame that you use the most favorable abilities. Still, does not change the argument an certainly is not the experience of casual players or even regular players. And still soldiers can be easily crippled and tanking is never a good choice. So also no for me here.

100% accuracy in PP is not 100% accuracy in XCOM. It just means a smaller reticle where 50% of your shots fall. Instead of full damage with every shot. So… again no.

Still more complex resource management that the almost unexisting resource management in XCOM… so gain… no.

So you need to manage multiple bases aircrafts and squads… unlike in XCOM. So… no.

Again this argument is pointless. And I dont think you are actually making honest points. I think is more than obvious that PP is more complex and less friendly than XCOM, none of tyour arguments actually counter this. So it is kind of pointless to keep beating the bush around it. As I said, it does not really matter.

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Still +50% boost in damage for any kind of weapon? What tactical game gives such bonuses? :slight_smile:

I do not multiclass my soldiers since over a year. And they have multitude of limitations to not get overpowered. Then game is fun for me. Regular players probably don’t limit themselves in any way so they use such combinations…

I suppose you don’t try to convince me that I don’t know what is 100% hit chance in Phoenix Point? :smiley:

You say everywhere “no”. To some extent you may be true. But again these things are trivial even if more complex than in FiraXCOM.

If you will have some time, just check @etermes youtube channel. This guy is using more severe restrictions than I am, and still he has no difficulty with beating the game on the highest difficulty setting. Then maybe you will understand, what casuals can achieve when they don’t restrict themselves and use all the exploits (need to watch out for this word) available in the game.

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What about the multiple free shot perks of XCOM? or the +50% crit damage? or pretty much every gun upgrade having a +50% damage over the previous in XCOM? so… again no.

Regular players will not be aware of these combinations. And most players that are aware are vets who do not use specific habilities when they break the game. Also OP combinations are being constantly addressed and removed. In XCOM all max level soldiers are OP by design. So still no.

No, I know you know, just pointing out that you argument is pointless here and regardelss I assume you know it or not, Im pointing it out to you. The point was… still no.

Gameplays of superpro players are pointless to discuss how new players aproach the game. I suppose you are aware that there are no damage runs for XCOM (not in all misions), dont you?. So… again no.

Yes, for some reason I just amused myself with this. So excuse me, it does not mean to be disrepectful, it is me enjoying myself because I kind of like the discussion.

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I suppose I lost my all arguments. :slight_smile: Maybe someone else will convince you that game is for casual players. :wink: I still hold to my opinion. I probably can’t express it in convenient way. Maybe FiraXCOM is just wrong game to compare…

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^^ This, I said it already :slight_smile:

IMO FiraXComs are very casual and not really the games to compare if you want to convince someone that PP is for casuals and/or trivial.

Edit for PS:
Yes, I have read your whole conversation, very interesting and always fair :+1: