Mark for death not working as intended

[MadSkunky]

@oSiyeza

So the Deceptor gun will almost never make more than 200 damage in one shot.

With MoD it should be more, don’t forget the 2 shred per bullet.

Mathematically, theoretical, idealised maximum damage against 30 armor with MoD and +10% from vivisection (later in the game, but still possible), all hits the same armor part:
First hit: (35 * 1.1 - (30 - 0)) * 1.5 = 12,75
2nd hit: (35 * 1.1 - (30 - 2)) * 1.5 = 15.75
3rd hit: (35 * 1.1 - (30 - 4)) * 1.5 = 18,75
…
12th and last hit: (35 * 1.1 - (30 - 22)) * 1.5 = 45,75

In sum 351 damage, again idealised maximum.

The 2 shred * 12 is what makes the Deceptor such a great weapon.

But we still don’t talk about a one shot weapon in normal cases and you have to be really close to get such a result. Of course it ramps up stupidly high with Sneak Attack or even better with Rage Burst (can one shot Chirons without Sneak Attack, but of course only close on).

Edit: The same for the Harrower, the 8 shred per bullet makes it a very hard hitting weapon. Calculated and idealised max damage of 354, close to the Deceptor (after 4 bullets there is no armor left).

[oSiyeza]

Noted and granted. I still consider you will in practise never make more than 200 dmg with that deceptor. As you will never be that close to hit the same parts with all bullets.

Granted these are among the best guns of the game. And pulling a sneak attack on top sounds like really strong. OP? I dont know, I will grant you that sneak attack can give you a lot of stupidly strong combinations.

A MoD perfect overwatch would be able to kill an umbra, except that you cant use MoD on overwatch. What I see is a lot of nuances on how to use efectively a deceptor, and some exploit potential if you use sneak. In my experience, most guns do not feel OP at all with MoD. And Rage Burst is so unreliable that you would be much better using quick aim, most of the time.

Regardless, we are not talking about an obviously OP ability anymore, we are talking about some combinations of abilities that may be unbalanced.

Remember, without MoD, against a 30 armored enemy an AT can easily make 300 damage. Doing 351, with a perfect Deceptor shot against a MoD target does not seem that OP anymore if you look it under that glass.

In the case of the Harrower, is a very hard hitting gun indeed, and I think it should be.

[MadSkunky]

@oSiyeza

And Rage Burst is so unreliable that you would be much better using quick aim, most of the time.

Only on range, if you can get your Heavy with a Deceptor close on, then Quick Aim is just a joke compared to this. And close on it is very reliable, I use it often this way and almost never with a bad result.

Edit:
The only downside for me is, it is only effective against Chirons, Scyllas, Vehicles, Mutogs or the ancient Guardians. Against all other it is mostly a waste of ammo, still effective and pretty sure a one shot, but a whole magazine is also a lot misses.

[oSiyeza]

I may agree with you on that, specially on large targets, and I would argue that sometimes that extreme firepower is needed. Regardless I dont think I ever hit more than 3 shots with a rage burst, most of the time hiting with 2. which is still good, but ended most of the time going for a granted mid range 2 hits with quick aim on my heavy.

EDIT: probably my bad too, since I felt so underwhelmed by the ability that i did never wet for it against a scylla.

[MadSkunky]

@oSiyeza

Regardless I dont think I ever hit more than 3 shots with a rage burt

You still use sniper rifles with rage burst from distance? This is of course not longer useful, IMO rightly.

It is devastating when used with the right weapon (burst, you know? ) at close distance against big targets.

[oSiyeza]

I didnt use snipers with it. I used a couple of times against sirens and artillery at fairly close range with hell 2 (a gun I loved too much, that failed me a lot) and burst guns, good for wiping terrain out, but almost never as powerful as I think it would be. Good for spraing poison and acid with the bioguns though.

Granted I should be really close and personal, and I may have been a bit too shy with range.

EDIT: Against artillery the aim system often tricked me into thinking I was firing into the body and instead fired in between the legs with my frienemy the Hell II, thus my disapointment…

[VOLAND]

I would say that probably by itself MfD is not OP, once the stacking is gone, of course.

A different issue is that personally I have grown to profoundly dislike all skills that just buff the damage in PP, not so much because it’s OP but because it’s dumb and does not engage with the strengths of the game (realistic ballistics).

Take Rage Burst, for example. It’s also about multiplying damage, but target, positioning (both distance and angle) are crucial, and you have to consider the expenditure of ammunition. All that makes it a fun skill to use (for me, at least).

Surprise attack (LVL2 infiltrator skill), also fun, because 1) it’s shock, not standard damage, and 2) positioning (angle) matters. Sneak Attack…? Why have something like that at all?

[Omega]

@oSiyeza

A +50% effect in MoD is pretty much needed to be useful with most guns of the game.

+100% match

Of course, MfD is not OP. It was meant to be from the beginning.
+50% more DMG by the end of the round. That’s how it was originally thought and implemented. Now we need more WP and several soldiers with the same ability to achieve the damage that was intended. Nothing special for most players, stack, kill, move on. Nothing too worrying. It used to be a buff for everyone now only for melee, it’s fine as long as they don’t make anything worse.

@VOLAND

I would say that probably by itself MfD is not OP, once the stacking is gone, of course.

+1

@MadSkunky

It is devastating when used with the right weapon (burst, you know? ) at close distance against big targets.

Why not let the players play their game? What do you have against this combination? If he succeeds, what could be wrong?

[MadSkunky]

@Omega

Why not let the players play their game? What do you have against this combination? If he succeeds, what could be wrong?

What have I now said again?
To be clear, in my opinion everyone can play the game as they want and with the combinations they like, there is nothing wrong with it.

[Omega]

@MadSkunky

You still use sniper rifles with rage burst from distance?

What else? Or did I read something over?

[oSiyeza]

@Omega

What else? Or did I read something over?

He means that, with the new way Rage burst works, is useless but at very short range, and only against very big targets. In my opinion, this ability needs more tunning, to be really usefull.

[MadSkunky]

@Omega

@MadSkunky

You still use sniper rifles with rage burst from distance?

What else? Or did I read something over?

OK, gotcha, I still try to teach others to do something in a different and probably more effective way. I didn’t realize that this was in any way inappropriate. If so, then of course I apologize.

[oSiyeza]

No offense was taken and no apology is needed from my end. I pretty much apreciated all your comments, if this helps.

[Omega]

@oSiyeza

He means that, with the new way Rage burst works, is useless but at very short range, and only against very big targets. In my opinion, this ability needs more tunning, to be really usefull.

RB? I take it all back. Very bad example. But most people wanted this change! They wanted it that way. Now we all have to live with it. No offence.

[Omega]

@MadSkunky

OK, gotcha, I still try to teach others to do something in a different and probably more effective way. I didn’t realize that this was in any way inappropriate. If so, then of course I apologize.

Exactly. Fortunately, the game does offer a few combinations that are useful and some are not as important as before but still possible. As long as this possibility exists, what can be wrong unless the player himself asks for it? No offence.

[oSiyeza]

None taken. I dont think the idea is bad on itself, but the cone aiming system for the ability feels wrong and ineffective. I would make the ability in a different way, with a cone fire with a range and width depending on the weapons class, autofiring all enemies in the cone till the magacine is empty (maxing to 5 shots), instead of firing at the air. And making the ability to remove stealth and ignore MoD.

Of course, only my opinion.

[Omega]

Sounds good and reasonable. I would sign it. Any change (RB) would be better than the current one. Just my opinion as well.

[VOLAND]

@oSiyeza

I would make the ability in a different way, with a cone fire with a range and width depending on the weapons class, autofiring all enemies in the cone till the magacine is empty (maxing to 5 shots)

I remember discussing Rage Burst a year ago and someone proposing something like this

So... Rage Burst can no longer cover multiple targets

Interesting thread, lots of great suggestions and I too feel like Rage Burst is basically a “precision instagib” button at the moment when combined with something like a sniper rifle. Even with a basic-tier and more inaccurate weapon like the Hel Cannon, unloading a full magazine with no accuracy penalty can kill most enemies. It certainly makes taking down Scyllas and Chirons in a single turn pretty easy, especially since they’re so big. However, I feel like making it a sweep for every weapon …

[sectoid_br]

I agree with @oSiyeza’s comments about MFD in general. I don’t think it’s the worst problem, nor that 350 damage from a close range weapon up close and with MFD is too much for mid-late game. It’s very powerful, but combining these specific situations and skills, you should’ve it. You’re taking risks by using WP from your sniper and going close with another soldier. Also, the AT’s are OP by themselves indeed.

About RB I like it the way it is now, but the aiming system for it and the way damage and spread is presented to you is terrible. Going back to the backer builds, you could choose a horizontal range for the burst. I think it would be great if the cone was adjustable, specially if using the aiming view. There should be a minimum cone that would depend on the weapon, the more wildly the more spread just like with aiming.

Finally, about Sneak Attack… what do you guys think about it if Vanish was changed so that it didn’t guarantee sneaking away? I mean, you would go back to invisible only if there were no spotters. This way Sneak Attack wouldn’t be usable up close, being more of a bonus for long range weapons. It could also drop from 50% to like 30% and would still be useful.

[MadSkunky]

@sectoid_br

Finally, about Sneak Attack… what do you guys think about it if Vanish was changed so that it didn’t guarantee sneaking away? I mean, you would go back to invisible only if there were no spotters.

It would be hard to understand when you got spotted by a Triton with double perception that is hidden. Some of them have pretty high stealth so that this happens quite often. Then you would not be able to use vanish but don’t know why.

Additionally a revealed Infiltrator already goes back in stealth mode when he is unspotted for one turn, so this vanish to do it immediately would be a bit underrated for a lvl 6 skill IMO.

@sectoid_br

This way Sneak Attack wouldn’t be usable up close, being more of a bonus for long range weapons.

I’m not sure, making stealth mostly an option for long range could be to much.
When I use Infiltrators without dual classing then mainly to spot enemies and for this I have to move them in some exposed positions. Vanish is then somehow the last resort if something went bad and also needed to deal with the high perception and stealthy Tritons (they can spot and reveal an infiltrator without Thief perk from 15 tiles distance, that is quite a lot IMO).

@sectoid_br

It could also drop from 50% to like 30% and would still be useful.

I still think that drop the damage buff to 50% would be enough. IMO it would be OK’ish for single class Infiltrator with only crossbows (don’t forget them) and also on par with Brawler, Bloodlust and MoD (all of them can be mixed together, not only with Sneak Attack).

Edit:
Additionally Vanish already got a (hidden and undocumented) nerf. In “the good old days” a vanished Infiltrator keeps this state through the whole enemy turn and was so (mostly) save from any enemy. Nowadays the vanish state ends with the players turn, in the enemies turn he is nothing more than a normal Infiltrator and so pretty vulnerable. You already have to be pretty careful with Infiltrators in close to mid range of enemies, of course only when you not kill 'em all.

And another edit:
When Assault/Infiltrator should not longer can use Sneak Attack with melee weapons and the vengeance torso for 1 AP melee attacks then there is a second combination that is close to this: Assault/Heavy with Vengeance Torso and 50% dmg bonus because of Brawler. With a normal melee weapon this is already pretty deadly and turns into a chain killing rapid clearance machine with the ancient Scyther. Currently the Infiltrator combo is just stronger because of the 100% damage bonus but also costs more WP for vanishing to achieve (Brawler don’t need any WP, it is passive).