Link Rally to Officer Promotion

Linked to Canny here: https://phoenixpoint.canny.io/feedback/p/rally-the-troops-needs-some-limits

Rally is currently OP. According to the maths done by others more competent than I, it is possible for a 6-soldier squad to gain more than 1 extra turn of Actions for all of its soldiers and for an 8-soldier squad to gain 4 or more extra turns if you abuse it completely. From my own personal experience, I can tell you that an 8-soldier squad with 4 Rallies gives everyone in the squad 2 full turns for every 1 turn of the Pandas.

However, Rally is also a vital survival tool, and nerfing it into the ground won’t do anyone any good, so I thought we might kill 2 birds with one stone, and as well as imposing some limits to Rally we could introduce Officers into the game - 'cos let’s face it: Rallying the troops is what Officers are supposed to do ;0)

The idea is that taking the Rally skill also promotes that Squaddie into an NCO. Every time a new squaddie takes Rally (s)he is promoted, and all the Officers above them are pushed one rung up the ladder as well. This does limit Officer classes to the Assault build - but in most modern armies, very few Specialists rise above NCO status anyway.

Officers can Rally anyone in their squad who is of a lower rank than they are. They cannot Rally anyone of higher rank.

So the number of Rallies available to PP as a whole is a hard limit based on the number of Officer slots on the ladder: if you want to limit it to 5, you have a Corporal, Sergeant, Sgt Major, Lieutenant and Captain. If you want to limit it to 8, you add a 2nd Lt, Major and Colonel into the mix, and so on. This could even be chosen as an Advanced Option at the start of any new game.

This allows you to still tailor your squad to enable 1 or 2 soldiers to get multiple turns from everyone above them using Rally, but conversely the highest-ranked Officer in the squad cannot be Rallied at all. So it lessens the overall effect of Rally without completely nerfing it, and gives players another thing to think about, which is no bad thing.

I’m adding this to Torinus’ Canny post about Rally, as I think that’s how the devs like things done: https://phoenixpoint.canny.io/feedback/p/rally-the-troops-needs-some-limits

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… or at least I will when Canny stops playing silly buggers and lets me. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

I have been playing with one Rally the Troops per turn per squad for so long now that I had forgotten it was a problem…

TBH, I think that what you are suggesting doesn’t fix the problem. Take a squad of 8 with 4 officers - you could still refund 7 + 6 + 5 + 4 - 8 = 14 APs, which is too much, especially when used as a safety net for rapid clearance loops.

However, the idea of officers is a good one, IMO because of squad management issues.

I created a ticket on this a while back https://phoenixpoint.canny.io/feedback/p/create-squads-assign-roles-within-and-choose-deployment-formations

It would really make a lot of sense to assign Rally the Troops to the leader of the team, and then perhaps organize the team further into 2-3 subteams of 2-3 with their own leaders, whose rally would only apply to their subordinates.

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That sounds a little too complex.

I did play with the idea of only being able to Rally those of a lower level than you, but it nerfs the skill too much.

Though it is still possible to exploit the Officer system I suggest, it takes a lot of work (and a full squad of multi-skilled Assaults). Personally, I’ve found that the system creates enough of a limit to prevent total Spam, whilst still enabling Rally to be useful - but I’m not claiming that it’s perfect in any way.

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Of course, you could only rally to the next lower level. If you limit the number of subordinates to 4, you could also equate the AP costs with the AP to be donated.

E.g .:
A group of 9 soldiers, 2 platoons each with 3 soldiers plus an officer and a third officer leads the entire team.

  • For 2 AP, the troop leader can “rally” 1 AP each to the two platoon leaders
  • The two platoon leaders can “rally” 1 AP each for 3 AP to their subordinates

Then you have a total of 2 - 2 + 2 x (3 - 3) = 0 AP, so no AP “generation” but only “moving” the AP to other soldiers.

A bit of OT:
Something similar for “rapid clearance”, you only get back the AP that you used for the kill. A kill with a 1-AP weapon or with Quickaim / Adrenaline Rush then only returns 1 AP. On the other hand, a kill with a 3-AP weapon like a sniper rifle or heavy weapon would also return 3 AP.

Maybe too big a nerf overall, but you would get away from the possibility of simply generating additional AP for almost endless loops.

Just a few thoughts, please don’t reject them right away. And of course the opponent has to be balanced accordingly :wink:

Edit the numbers, for my calculation the platoons should have 3 soldiers PLUS 1 officer :wink:

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You know, those aren’t bad ideas… :smirk:

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I like both suggestions! Nice :clap:

No, definitely not. First of all, in my opinion, many casual gamers don’t even know how to “cheat” with AP regeneration. And second (as @VOLAND always says): If there are such cheats, it hides the “real” danger of the opponents (mishandling of the data of the strategy-experienced players; balancing of the opposing side is almost impossible)

And that should be our goal!

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Can you explain this calculation? Because I’m not seeing this.

Imagine setting it each time when you replace soldiers? Or you just stop entire team until most injured and tired soldiers will get better?

For me first would be too tedious. Second would be waste of time for healthy soldiers. So I don’t see such division for subteams. Just assign single soldier for an commanding officer when on the deployment screen before mission and that should be all.

  • The 1 troop officer spends 1 AP to each of the platoon leader and it will cost him 2 AP because there are only 2 platoon leader -> 2 - 2 = 0
  • The 2 platoon leader can spend 1 AP to each of their platoon members and it will cost them 3 AP, because there are 3 of them -> 2 x (3 - 3) = 0

Of course you have to limit it to a max of 4 subordinates because you can only spend a maximum of 4 AP.

Edit because of your edit :wink:
Yes, it could be somewhat tedious, it is only a subpar idea to handle it on a complicated manner.

That would definitely be the easy way but it doesn’t deal with the problem of “generating AP out of nothing” …

Oh I haven’t seen this sentence for some reason:

Now it makes sense. :smiley:

True, but if only one soldier (Officer) can cast Rally the Troops then it limits possibilities for too many loops. :slight_smile: It can even stay then at current cost.

Sure, it would be a beginning :slight_smile:

Now that I’m thinking about that, why not implementing a form of more or less prebuilded platoons (up to 5 soldiers) and assigning these platoons to a ship instead of single soldiers?
If you have one of your platoon member heavily injured you can just switch this soldier with a fresh one without fumbling with the whole platoon setup.

You would need to create some role descriptions, what classes it includes etc, additional screen to manage that squad. That would also require having a lot of spare soldiers to fulfill empty roles. Unless you mean just throwing there any soldier for a replacement. But then I don’t see a reason behind such platoon.

Yes, absolutely.

@MadSkunky 0 AP generation is one possible approach, but limiting the number of APs that can be generated is also fine (as in the case of a single use of Rally the Troops per squad).

That is sort of what I suggested on Canny. I’m not particular about the details, but it’s clear that troop management becomes an issue towards late mid-late game. And it seems natural to link an ability like rally to how the squad is organized.

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These ideas are only coming out of my head as I read this and are more brainstorming that a complete concept :wink:

Why?
Just build platoons with classes like you want and assign one of them regardless of his class to be the leader. Then make “Rally the Troops” an special ability for this role and give the assault something other on level 6.

Yes, see above :wink:
The reason is to make RtT a more suitable but also nice ability without it to be too powerful.
And, of course, because I personally would like such a form of troop management :wink:

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Ok then, so nothing too complicated. That could work. Nothing killed more XCOM Long War for me than managing squads before each combat. :smiley:

Once you are fielding two teams + stables at home base troop management becomes an issue, especially when you rotate soldiers when they are injured. I can’t ever remember who is on what ship…

Yep, that’s the idea IMHO

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For me, RtT is fundamentally unable to provide a shot.

“4-6 tiles /dash points or 0.9AP” to move

But this way you only hide the possibility to provide a shot?
If I move an assault for 2.9 AP and then get back 0.9 AP from RtT then I have 2 full AP back to shot.
I like the idea to use it only for moving but as movement and AP are currently implemented you can’t separate them that easy.

As an US Army Engineer who went from specialist to Major, I dispute whether specialists in modern armies do not make rank. That being said, I think an officer class as a second class would be most welcome. The closest thing we have to it now is an assault/priest who can rally/mentally shield troops.

4AP = 4 pistol shots, 4.9AP = 4 pistol shots
In the case of + 0.9AP, stacking per person must be prohibited, but allowed to gain the next ally.