This game is awful I wish I never bought it

I bought this game early 2019, My son recommended it to me as he knew I liked XCOM. I have been trying to play it to the end ever since then. I didn’t have any issues finishing any of the XCOM games even on hardest difficulty.

I have been playing games like since the first UFO game back in the I can’t even remember ( yes I am that old) This game however is unbalanced. It is just too hard to play on the easy levels. What’s more just when you get used to playing it the devs change it and you have to learn new tactics. Point in case Rage Burst and Pandoran Evolution. I recall the game being tweaked to slow down evolution and recently it was changed to speed it up. It seems to me every time there is a patch, elements of the game get changed which by themselves might not make much difference but the cumulative effect changes how the game works.

Today I have had enough because this just is NOT FUN ANYMORE. Psychologists say that Developers should make "a game just challenging enough to keep you coming back for more but not so hard that the player eventually gives up. In other words, success for a gamer often feels just out of reach. " Well I hate to tell you guys but this game is too hard and I give up. I have got better things to do than play a game that isn’t any fun.

Before the last major update I got as far as the final mission but since I didn’t have a priest I ran out of ammo and could not finish it. Yes I read some of the ‘how to’ posts but when I went to play them the game mechanics had changed and the hints no longer worked. The documentation is useless as it has not been updated. For example why can’t I see any of these mining sites that Legends of Ancients is supposed to have. What do I do when I do see them. And no I don’t want to troll through a bunch of posts to find out - I want the devs to do a proper job of explaining.

Today after the game has supposedly been rebalanced I get three haven attacks all at the same time. I defended two of them and lost the third. So I decided to attack the Lair and the Citadel causing the issues. The lair was ridiculously easy as it appeared instantly and I just shot it up. On to the Citadel, and this was just too hard. Every enemy had morphed so they were invincible and after being shot three or four times they were still alive. Yet if any of my troops takes two or more hits they are dead.

Sorry but the game mechanics are not even close to being realistic or believable or consistent. An enemy using the same weapon as me should not be able to do more damage than I can.

This game goes on the not using again shelf

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I support tcb’s comments. I am an experienced XCom player. Yes, I played the original games long ago. Phoenix Point has become more and more difficult as it had evolved. I won earlier versions at experienced player levels. With Legends of Ancients, I am losing at the beginners level. Rage Burst is no longer useful. The zombie Umbra Anthron are absurd. The Ancients defenders should be half broken down from their age and sitting around for millennia. Not super warriors they are now. I am, also, preparing to abandon the game.

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Game is good, it needs more balancing and Steam release :wink:

I am grateful that, when looking to bug reporting and discussion tool, most significant complaints do get to developer roadmap, quite easy - e.g. complain we can raid fractions with no severe consequences too easy. It directs game more to players wished level which is great, with small threat of taking vote of majority vs quality choices, but I do feel team chooses with great care.

So in last year game has developed more in a direction players expected then I ever expected.

I agree that towards the end of game new tech obtained even from hard won aliances does not strengthen armor nor shooting strength of weapons, world map goes crazy with too many events ( I do like feeling we cant get it all, but not I cant do much) and overall mutations get too strong to be handled. I would balance it here I would balance it here by adding new improved weapons and armor in all 3 sections and even some PP unique.

Created balance ticket

I don’t think it is too difficult - but it is easy to make it difficult through strategic decisions. The optimal path is not obvious - for better or worse. Dangerous enemies are not introduced properly.

Examples are stealing an aircraft vs building one - saying this makes the game easier would be an understatement. Having second aircraft for free within the first week completely changes everything. On the tactical layer, Umbras and Return Fire spit in the face of new players without proper introduction. Your first mission can have level 1 Assaults with Return Fire. That’s simply not how you do it.

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I don’t see this as an issue about the game being too difficult or too easy. It’s about the game being fun. About the game being an enjoyable and engaging experience.

The Pandorans evolve way too quickly in the 1.7 patch. Enemies turn into bullet sponges. They gain more hit points and armour before the player can get tools to counter them—with the most effective tool being getting a second aircraft so that you can send 8 soldiers on every mission. When you need to hit a lowly triton four of five times to kill it, having a squad of 8 soldiers makes a huge difference.

But when every battle turns into a tedious process of chipping away at enemies, manoeuvring to focus fire on one enemy, it gets kind of repetitive. Boring. The opposite of fun.

The first few missions in a Phoenix Point game are fun. But as the game progresses and the Pandorans evolve, the game becomes, coincidentally, less and less fun.

The current changes in the 1.7 patch make the game a tedious grind for some. Others just call the game boring AF and put it down.

Anyway, is there a way to roll back to a previous version? It would be nice to play a version of Phoenix Point that was actually fun to play. Because 1.7 isn’t that. It just isn’t fun.

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To provide a little more context to my original comments.

I was finding the game very frustrating until the Cthulu Update when I started to like it a bit more. But when I saw the Legacy of the Ancients had increased the speed at which Pandorans evolve I thought “Oh Oh” as this was my major issue when I first started the game and I had seen an earlier patch slow it down which had made it a lot easier.

Anyway I was progressing through a new Ancients Campaign and had I thought made reasonable progress. But it turns out that Padoran Evolution would bite me you know where!!

I had already stolen a Tiamat so I went into a Lair with 8 troops most of which were level 6 and some at level 7. Three of these were snipers with the Synderon laser sniper rifle. I also had three heavies with jump capability for scouting two of which had grenade launchers and one had the Fury 2 missile. The game countered with the usual Chiron lobbying worms at me and three Sirens at the same time. Also the Lair was hidden in cloud and was not drawn or visible and I could not see it even though one of my jumpers landed right next to the cloudy foggy zone. This was an impossible scenario. I gave up and left the lair alone for a while.

Then I got three haven defences at same time. Followed by an attack on one of my bases. During which one of those new archons that rises from the dead turned up and I thought WTF?

And then I went back to the same lair as before with same troop loadout and behold the lair was in a different spot and instantly visible by every trooper. So I shot it up and two turns later it was destroyed. Hardly any defensive enemies showed up anywhere close to my troops. They were there but a long way away. Now that’s what I mean by not consistent not realistic.

Then I went to the citadel with the same troops.
The first thing that happened was I got attacked by those snipers with the paralyzing rifle who shot at me and then went invisible. Two troops paralysed in two turns and I can’t even see them to shoot back. So put the snipers on overwatch. They score hits but get hardly any damage. Meanwhile the Scylla decides to attack and floods the area with mist so I lose even more troops to paralysis. Lobbed a couple of grenades into the area. But I am losing troops which I cannot afford to replace.

Yes I know i could eventually beat this scenario but I figured this just is not fun anymore . For starters like a lot of people have said it’s a grind just gettin resources to build up troops. By careful management I had two teams of fully loaded Manticores and had scanned most of Asia and Europe and some of Africa and had not seen any ancient Legend type stuff. I had defended every haven mission. Yes I know I could optimise my tactics and use my troops better. But I figured if I do that whats to stop the developers changing the game mechanics AGAIN. It’s not like they haven’t done that any number of times for reasons best known to themselves.

I have been playing this game for over a year and have yet to complete it. I got close once. Every other time the devs changed the mechanics and I had to relearn how to fight or I lost a campaign due to auto update rendering saved games unusable.

Sorry but I am NOT having fun and I have NO FAITH this game is going to get better any time soon.

So for me it is GAME OVER. Game Abandoned. Will I be buying a snapshot game in future - i doubt it. Will I be recommending it to anybody else - No.

2 Likes

I completely agree with TCB and am on the verge of shelving this game for good too.

When it comes to tactical turn-based strategy games, I like to think I’m pretty good at them. I have dozens of legend Ironman campaigns in XCom 2 behind me, and I usually have a lot of fun playing these kinds of games on their highest difficulty setting.

From my perspective, one of the core problems in Phoenix Point are the enemies. They aren’t balanced. Instead of presenting the player with a challenge, they are, to quote the Tritons in the game, a giant “fuck you” to the player. Enemies don’t have weaknesses that players can exploit. The player isn’t given any (or many) tactical tools to deal with them either.

For example, there is the Siren, an absolute tank of an enemy with thick layers of armour everywhere, a devastating melee attack, a huge pool of hit points, and mind control. But wait there is more! Some variants have frenzy and can boost it’s speed from fast to ridiculously fast and cross half the map in one turn, which means it can often slither into mind control range, contol a player’s soldier, then slither away into a safe hiding spot.

Sure, you can bust your mind controlled soldier free by taking out the Siren’s head, but you need to get soldiers into position to shoot at its head, then you have to chew through all the armour on its head, and then you have to put in enough damage into it to take out its head. In terms of game play mechanics and the Action Point economy, the Siren’s mind control robs the player of one soldier then requires about 10 AP of shooting and hitting the Siren’s head plus whatever AP is needed to move and get line of sight to that Siren. All in all, that one move by the Siren effectively neutralizes about five or six soldiers on the players squad just to deal with one mind control—leaving the player with few—if any—soldiers to deal with other threats that turn. Which means that the player is going to take damage, perhaps even a lot of damage, from other enemies on the battlefield.

In XCom 2, the Sectoid has the same mind control abilities, but after the first mission, the player has the ability to build and equip Flashbang Grenades, which will disorient the Sectoid and break mind control. Furthermore, the Sectoid has a weakness, a vulnerability to melee attack, which the Ranger class of soldiers can unleash even after sprinting. The player has multiple options to counter a Sectoid—with the Flashbang being optimal, and the Ranger attack being the next best, and then focused fire from the rest of the squad also being a choice that the player can consider. In terms if the action points economy, dealing with a Sectoid’s mind control means that the player temporarily loses one soldier to the mind control and then needs to use all the actions from a second soldier to move and toss a Flashbang. That also leaves the player with four squad members (67% of a squad of six) to address other threats on the battlefield.

In XCom 2, the Sectoid mind control puts a player into a tough situation, which the player then has to figure out what the best way to get out of it is. And one of the reasons XCom 2 is so beloved and critically acclaimed (one of the best games made in the last decade) is that the player always has multiple options to consider.

In Phoenix Point, a Siren mind control messes with the player in a huge “fuck you” way. One Siren mind control essential hands the AI a free turn to mess up the player. And the player has only two options: grind through the Siren armour and hit points or bend over and take it.

And it’s not just the Siren that is like that. Almost every Pandoran enemy—except worms and Mindfraggers—requires so many action points to effectively counter and eliminate that every mid and late game mission turns into a tedious slog.

The new enemy type, some purple bullshit zombie Arthon is another example of an action point sinkhole that requires the player to—and this is the radical change-up in game mechanics—move five or six soldier near the gestating umbral Arthon and overwatch. The player needs to put anywhere from two thirds to all their soldiers on umbral overwatch duty to deal with it—effectively handing the AI yet another free turn.

Pheonix Point has stealth Tritons with sniper rifles and huge pools of hit points that are difficult to spot and need to be hunted down then shot four or five time before they are taken out. Does the player get a battle scanner they could toss like a grenade to reveal or partially reveal the Triton? Nope. All a player can do is play hide and seek—with some Tritons being so well camouflaged that you have to be right next to them to reveal then even if they are out in the open. The player has few counters besides running around playing Marco Polo with a triton while, simultaneously, taking massive amounts of damage from incoming sniper rifle shots. Good times!

And then there is the most hated enemy in the game, the explosive bomb Chiron that can hit and one-shot kill a max level, max health soldier anywhere on the map. But they aren’t hated in the same way that Stun Lancers are in XCom 2. No, the Chiron is hated because it is essentially an RNG check on your squad. Fail the dice roll, and a soldier dies—just like that: do not pass go, do not collect $200. Oops, wrong game.

The menagerie of enemy types Phoenix Point presents the player with are essential more of the same, only distinguishable by their 3D models and maybe a minor mechanic or perk. Other than that they are all big bullet sponges that require the players to move and focus fire on each one. And it doesn’t matter what the enemy looks like, whether it has a shield of no shield, fighting one enemy is just like fighting every other enemy, which makes every battle feel like every other battle, every mission feel like every other mission—until the entire Pheonix Point experience blurs into a monotonous battle against a never ending onslaught of bullshit enemies.

Oh, and some missions have infinitely spawning enemies. So just in case you aren’t tired of more of the same indistinguishable enemies, you can have even more of the more of the same, indistinguishable enemies.

As the enemies gain more hit points and armour, the missions become more of a grind. The Pandoran evolution doesn’t make the enemies tougher or more challenging. It makes the game boring. Then it evolves into really boring.

And here is the thing about Phoenix Point, it has the potential to be fun. The first dozen or so mission in the game are fun. But as soon as the Pandorans start to evolve, the game become less and less fun. Huh? What a strange coincidence.

One major reason why the enemies in Phoenix Point are so one dimensional isn’t just that they all evolve the exact same way to gain more hit points and armour. It’s that they do not have any weaknesses. And some of the new “Prime” Arthons even flaunt that fact in the debug-console-with-pictures “intelligence reports.” These prime enemies do not even have a weak spot to target for maximum damage using the game’s free aim shooting mechanic. Just a thick layer of armour everywhere.

That design decision—to make perfect enemies with no weaknesses and no counters for the player to exploit—is where Phoenix Point goes off the rails.

By way of comparison, XCom 2’s enemies have weaknesses or tools a player can use to counter things. For example, to counter melee enemies, a player could use dragon rounds or incendiary grenades to set them on fire, effectively neutralizing their melee attacks for a time—until either the fire goes out on its own or the enemy hunkers down to put it out. Poison rounds and grenades provided significant aim and movement penalties to enemies hit by those weapons, but not every enemy can be poisoned. The much-hated Stun Lancer that often disorients and sometimes knocks out soldiers can be countered with fire, poison, Flashbangs as well as regular weapons. And the Specialist class can get the Revive perk to wake up an unconscious soldier. With robotic enemies (which are immune to fire and poison), players can unlock blue screen rounds that do more damage against those types of enemies. The Lost enemies are especially weak against fire, and since one of the their strengths is numbers, Firaxis also introduced a new headshot mechanic to counter that. Some enemies have a high dodge stat, but the player can opt for holotargeting as a perk on some soldiers to laser-paint a hard to hit target and improve the rest of the squad’s accuracy. In other words, whatever challenges and difficult enemy types XCom 2 presents to the player, there are corresponding items or perks to counter it.

As you can see, there is a lot of rock-paper-scissors type of balancing in XCom 2. And there is so little of that kind of balance evident in Phoenix Point.

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I ve been looking in the game since BB5 and it changes a lot. Usually new stuff brings new mess, but its later reworked and balanced. Dont give up that easy, update and try it again in few months.

P.S. I have just discovered modders do a lot of magic

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I like the game but those guys got good points. Enemies are not balanced and they got HP and armor bufs non-stop.

We don’t have many options rather then killing the enemy. There is not tactical weapons. Most of the grenades are useless. Why don’t we have flashbangs and smoke screens? Why don’t we have special weapons or bullets with special effects? A paralysing gun which disables the part for limited turn?

There is no weakness part is sad but true. As this game do not have a proper tier system and we can’t get more powerful weapons, at mid game you start to become very weak when even the smallest enemy got 100s hp… Your assaults and snipers become useless more and more.

Every enemy got 300+ hp and good armor, basicly much better survive more then my heavies in heaviest armor. Every enemy weapon is deadly for you and enemy melee and snipers are just one or two shot even your toughest soldier.

I expect to get a good weapon tier with every weapon type for PX from LotA but as the weapon choices are very bad and it’s so hard to get that junk…

Paralyse and virus systems are useless or OP…

I like free aiming very much but as they said, if your weapon is useless as damage and aim from a safe range, then there is no point. After some point, the only goal is max damage. The skills are just for more or faster shooting.

Why is there no disable shot at snipers? If a siren still got a working head after 3 shot of sniper, then why care?

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I agree … the difficulty scaling is quite bland and uninspired … exemplified by that recently introduced Umbra. It’s such a great core, but - it’s quantity over quality in too many areas.

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The real upgrades for the player are locked behind soldier perks.

Every class of weapon has an associated soldier perk that improves its damage output. And then there is a perk called Reckless that further boosts damage by another 30% more—to all weapons, all classes.

Every soldier comes with a set of three random perks, and if they come with the right combination of those perks, a god-tier roll, that will be the absolute best upgrade path for damage output in the entire game.

If you want to “gitgud” at Phoenix Point, all you have to do is learn how to spot those perk combinations and be lucky enough to get them.

All research in the game is pretty much useless. It all about soldier perks, the three core random perks that every soldier gets.

In fact, if you start a new game and look at the three random perks each rookie soldier gets, at what level those perks get unlocked, and whether those perks suit their initial class, well, if you’ve spent any time playing this game, you can tell from that very first personnel tab whether or not you have “good soldiers,” which will then determine how the entire campaign will unfold, how tough it will be. If you get “good soldiers” on day zero, you’ll be okay. If not, you’re in for a tough grind until you are lucky enough to find soldiers with the right perk combinations.

If you don’t have “good soldiers” in the beginning, you won’t be able to boost your squad’s damage output that you get from soldier perks in order to keep pace with the rapidly evolving Pandorans.

By tying damage output to soldier perks—instead of gear—Snapshot has made soldiers irreplaceable. Losing a single soldier on a mission not only makes that mission harder, but it can also cripple the player and diminishes that player’s capacity to handle all other future missions. In other words, if you lose just one “good soldier” at any point during a campaign, that Is pretty much it, campaign over.

How long would it take to replace a top-tier soldier? Well, that’s entirely random. It all depends on the random perks on the random classes for the random soldiers in the random soldier recruitment process and at what levels a soldier can unlock those random perks, which is, by the way, generated randomly.

The strange thing about Phoenix Point is that it has a permanent death mechanic tied to a perk-based super-soldier upgrade system that severely punishes a player for losing a soldier. The community’s solution is simple and brilliant: don’t engage with the permanent death mechanic. If a soldier gets killed, reload from the last save or restart the mission. In other words, the community has rendered the permanent death mechanic obsolete and meaningless. And the prevailing attitude on Reddit is that only an idiot would play this game in an Ironman mode.

But the most significant impact of tying damage upgrades to soldier perks is to take away a players ability to respond to the game’s difficulty curve. In other games in this genre, players can dedicate resources to research, hire more scientists, or build more labs in order to keep pace with the enemy—or even get ahead of the difficulty curve by unlocking better armour or more powerful weapons. Phoenix Point does away with all that and replaces it with a gambling mechanic based on RNG. What you research and how many labs a player has is mostly irrelevant in this game. What matters the most is getting “good soldiers.” And getting “good soldiers” is based entirely on luck.

Some of the enemies—and in particular Chirons, Siren’s, Tritons, Arthons, and these umbral variants—need a complete overhaul.

At the risk of predicting the future, I can guarantee that if Snapshot doesn’t overhaul those enemies and fix them then the Steam modding community will do it instead, which will then make those enemy overhaul mods into the heart and soul of the game—and the real version that everyone actually plays.

This is not wise nor logical when we talk about damage/HP ratio. A soldier can shoot better but cannot hit more with skill. One of the biggest mistakes of this game. And having that random… owww…

All the sandbox system with multiclass and random skills, It’s a total mess. As you said soldiers are very important and they are very expensive to buy even as rookie. So you can’t just kick a soldier and replace with better one.

Those random skills or perks makes your soldiers “rambo” or “crap”… The funny part is, this game got nearly non of the RNG elements but here, when you should not use RNG at all…

A sniper suddenly able to use heavy weapon and even better then a heavy class… It’s so stupid idea…

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I want to highlight exactly how much of an impact RNG has on a player’s ability to “upgrade” the damage a soldier can do in this game and adapt to its difficulty curve.

If a player gets lucky and has a soldier with the Reckless and Close Quarters perks, for example, they will get two boost to their damage with a shotgun, +20% from Close Quarters and +30% from Reckless for a total or +50% more damage.

Thus, the unlucky player is stuck at a damage output one or two tiers lower than the lucky player who got soldiers with good rolls from the get go. In game, that means that regular assault soldier taking a point blank shotgun shot at an enemy like a Triton would not be able to get a kill beyond the early game. The mid-game Triton will survives a regular point blank shotgun blast from a soldier that doesn’t have a damage boosting perk. With both perks, point blank shotgun blasts will kill all but the toughest enemies—even in the late game.

Another more striking example is the combination of Trooper and Reckless. Trooper boosts assault rifle damage by +25%, and with Reckless its goes up to +55% per bullet, which means that this soldier can take any assault rifle in the game and hit any target—even one with 30 (even 40) armour—and push damage through that armour. In the mid game, many Pandorans enemies have 30 armour, which is the amount of damage a basic assault rifle does per bullet. Without those two perks, the assault rifle bullets would “bounce” off the armour, just shred a few points of armour and do 0 damage. If these two soldiers fired at the same enemy twice in one turn, the unlucky player’s soldier would take two shots and do around 0 damage. Shred some armour but do little to no damage. The lucky reckless trooper soldier, on the other hand, fires bursts that do 46 damage per bullet, less the armour mitigation, that’s 16 damage per hit, or about 96 damage to a target if all bullets in the burst hit, which is enough to take away a significant portion of most Triton’s and Arthon’s health. When you factor in the armour reduction from the shredding, two bursts in one turn means killing an enemy for the reckless trooper. It would take a soldier without those perks about five or six turns to get a kill.

Of course, in the game, no one is going to plink away with a useless weapon turn after turn. A competent player will turn to hand grenades or some other weapon that will do more damage. However, a soldier with reckless and Trooper can use assault rifles for the entire campaign because that perk combination keeps that weapon viable into the mid and even late game.

If you want to use assault rifles in Phoenix Point, you better be lucky and hope you win the soldier recruitment lottery.

Damage boosts in the +50% and +55% range are also on par or equal to the damage upgrades available when a player equips there new DLC weapons—just to put those perks into context.

If you don’t have soldiers with these kinds of perks, you, as a player, are going to have a radically different experience than a player who has a full squad of soldier with the bonus damage perks. And whether or not you can get these damage boosts and when you can get these damage bonuses unlocked is based, entirely, on RNG.

In other words, a player’s ability to adapt to the difficulty curve in the game is going to be based on being able to recruit soldiers with these “lucky” perk combination. Sure skill, being strategic, and using good tactics will also play a part too, and a skilled player will be able to adapt, but that player’s luck at “winning the soldier perk lottery” is a far more important factor in determining whether they will have hard time with the game or a much easier one.

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Your numbers are outdated, actually Reckless and also Trooper provides +20% damage, so max with both +40%.

But I think you’re absolute right about the randomness of the personal traits and that exactly these are the ones that you need to ‘upgrade’ your damage output.
The only way I know to get around this randomness and play more or less independent from the personal traits is to cross class almost any of you squaddies with Infiltrator. This way you have access to the most damage boosting skill in the game, Sneak Attack with +100%. Of course then you have to learn how to use (abuse) sneaky tactics with the Vanish skill or high stealth values.

But this is also not really balanced and for me over the top.

So the question comes in to my mind…

Are those perks ok with the game balance? I mean those dmg and acc bufs are ok with the game? Without them, those weapons are still useful?

The main idea here, if those skills are ok with the game, even without them most of the weapon types are useless aka AR’s then we can buff the weapon stats and erase those perks…

I think we are at same page with the problems of AR’s… as the game get their mutations so fast, our AR weapons became absolute at every tactical approach.

As PD and AR weapons, they just don’t know what to do… what are their purpose? We got the Gorgon PD which is better then whole AR weapons and you can use them with 1 TP… everyone says that Gorgon is OP… Ar’s suck… so we need to find a middle point for those weapons…

What do they need and what should be their purpose? I am asking that because I wanna do some modding test about them.

First of all, I plan to make all burst weapons TP’s less with less shots… like AR’s with 1 TP but 3 shot per burst… but it does not change that they suck at damage and acc. I plan to make 2 TP minigun shots too… shotguns could be use 1 TP too… we will see but my main problem is about AR’s for now.

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I personally think especially about ARs that the Trooper buff should be shiftet to the weapons and none with the perk (also accuracy). This way we would get Ares and Daimos at 36 damage per bullet with higher range and so they are able to overcome all armor up to 30 and the accuracy to shot specific body parts (even late in the game the highest armor part by almost any Pandoran up to Sirens is 30. Only Arthrons can have higher armor values at their carapace but I think that is OK, they still have lower armor on other parts). The NJ ARs are going up to 48 what I think is a good spot to do viable damage and here we have the Piranha at the end with additionally 15 piercing to pump this up even more. Accuracy would also go up, so they should be good at mid range but slightly inaccurate than the PP Ares AR. The Daimos would still be the most accurate AR but it also needs this accuracy to hit parts with lower armor compared to the NJ ARs.

Maybe this way could be gone with any weapon type and personal weapon trait. I mentioned it already an other thread and also @VOLAND has stated something similar elsewhere.

BTW, I’m not a big fan of reducing generally the AP to shoot.
I would like it more if we could have different types of shooting like in the old x-com. For ARs I would like to have a single bullet unaimed shot for 1 AP (snap shot, high accuracy penalty, good for close range), single bullet highly aimed shot for 3 AP (not as good but like a sniper with high accuracy boost) and finally the normal burst for 2 AP as it actually is. But then we have to go up with the damage per bullet and down with the burst to make the single bullet shots a viable choice.

Edit: This is also what I think about assault rifles in general, jack of all trades but master of nothing.

The weapon damage is balanced by the damage possible per turn at this kind of games, so not DP second but DP shot/time. You know that already probably. So you just get your all weapons, calculate their damage per turn/shot and try to find a middle point. It’s hard because when you got heavy weapons with 12 shot per turn (as I think it’s very few for 3 turn burst) and one shot sniper rifles with just one bullet which needs same TP. So you add some acc and range to balance this but there will always a gap… I think AR’s and PD’s don’t have that kind of balance… at least they lost it in time…

So I think about the different shot types, but they could be not so useful as you think. Will you lose 3 TP for a 1 bullet of AR? You don’t use “single” shots with burst weapons as they are meant to be for burst. So an old single shot of our xcom should be a “triple” burst from AR’s. For burst you can just go for 6-10 shots but very bad acc (if possible worse and worse at every bullet). Aimed… I don’t think it’s logical to have an aimed one.

For those reasons, 1 TP 3 shot AR fire with much better acc would be on point. If we got chance,we could make a 2 TP bad acc burst shot for short range encounters of course…

I searched for mods and sadly I did not find any file to edit those extra weapon perks. If I can mod the game freely in future, I would make a second line with just weapon specialty per class. +%5 acc for lvl 1, +5 for lvl 2, like that… or even just don’t make it at all and give soldiers automatically per level… Up to you…

But we can update the damage and acc of those weapons as you done the math. I still can’t find a place for PD’s when we got pistols. PD’s should have very bad acc and short ranged. They should be not main combat weapons but just emergency use…

One thing to bear in mind with shifting bonuses from Trooper to base ARs is that human enemies and Tritons will benefit most from this…

I doubt very much that either of these options is something that can be done in the base game. The first requires extensive rebalancing for uncertain gain, the second is too complex for much of the player base…

TBH, I think the easiest solution would be to have another 6 burst tier 3 AR that would compete with Piranha (Ares is tier 1, Bulldog is tier 2, Deimos is 2.5 and Piranha is tier 3).

The rest of it, imo, is not so much a specific AR problem as general balance issue, where the Cobra Kai approach (Strike First, Strike Hard, no Mercy) :slightly_smiling_face: play style doesn’t carry enough risk and the proficiency traits in general lead to imbalances.

Here is an idea suggested by gimrah on Discord, which personally I like very much: what if the damage buffs to weapons applied to damage done after armor? That would decrease the utility of the 20% damage buff to SGs, for example.

Of course :slight_smile:

But this system with different aim accuracy for different types of shots I mentioned works nicely in the old x-com, at least for me and I liked it very much. Also the system that Jagged Alliance used to spend more TU (time units) to get more accuracy for any weapon type.

The goal here is not more raw damage per TU but more hit chance per shot. Overall you then also get more damage per TU because you simply hit more and miss lesser shots. Especially for ARs, that hardly rely to hit specific body parts, this would be a good addition for me. And if we increase the bullet damage to something like 60-65 damage than it could be a viable choice to shot for 3 AP but with high accuracy at a target on long range or to do 1 snapshot for 1 AP close on instead a burst for 2 AP. I would then make the burst down to 3 bullets per shot. At the end you get almost the same burst damage as now for 2 AP but with choices for specific situations.

And finally, the damage per bullet of the ARs would be much better comparable to the pistols and shotguns. Actually it is a joke for me, that the conventional AR (Ares) have the lowest damage per bullet. I know it is because of balance issues, but it always feels plain wrong to me.

The same way could be gone with MGs, but then they loose their high bullets per burst. Not sure, but I think you wouldn’t like that, even when it is then more effective :wink:

And not the worst solution, I also thought about it.
I personally miss something in between Daimos and Piranha, the first is very accurate but also to low in damage per bullet, the second too inaccurate but with pretty good damage output if you hit.
So where to go?
The middle ground would be something like that:
35 damage per bullet, 5-10 piercieng, 5 bullets/burst, 28-30 ER

Would you take this?