Greater role for scientists and engineers

Phoenix Point
21

In the modern world, the work of our bleeding-edge scientists and engineers is merely the tip of the stupendously vast iceberg that is modern civilization.

In a modern society, everything is so interconnected that any product is the result of that entire society. People who put products together, people who got the materials the products are made of, people who run the machines that generate the power required for those things… et cetera. Even the things people tend to forget or disassociate with the production of a product: people who write the manuals, people who act as “gofers” for all the other people, middle-management, etc.

Then consider all the people behind the construction of the tools required to do each of those things, and then who make the tools required to make those, and so on, and so on.

Now, suppose a large majority of mankind were to be suddenly wiped out? There would be huge holes in the knowledge of how to produce things. Sure, someone might know how to fix the engine of a car, but if there’s no one who knows how to make spark plugs, one is forced to hope they can find workable ones in the debris left After the End. And then there’s the need for gasoline. And oil, and tires, and antifreeze and batteries, and… well, you get the idea.

And even if someone does know how to make those key components, all that knowledge is little more than useless trivia if the infrastructure of society has been disrupted to the point that the raw materials can no longer be supplied. This is especially true if the power grid has been destroyed, since most modern manufacturing processes require extensive use of computers, power tools and precision that no human hand is capable of.

In the world of Phoenix Point, 90% of the human race is dead. Independent havens are going to be far too busy just surviving to even think about inventing a new and better type of ceramic. Spending the effort needed to R&D armour that is 5% better will just get you killed by crabmen - you need to spend the effort the scavenge existing armour and bullets, and _maybe_service the cars and guns you already have.

The only exceptions are the major factions, each of which planned for the apocalypse in some form. But even there, I would expect progress to be limited - NJ is focused on better ways to kill stuff, the Disciples are tinkering with Things Man Was Not Meant To Know rather than doing actual science, and Synedrion…Synedrion actually does make substantial improvements in technology, I’ll grant you that. But they have…other problems.

Bottom line: for the most part, people in a post-apocalyptic scavenger world will value the people who can machine guns and can keep cars running. Not the university scientists whose research depends on a vast industrial/technological/knowldege base that has simply stopped existing.

4 Likes
22

Well, I was about to answer but I guess everything’s been said hahaha.

I took some time to find some numbers and here is an aproximation :

  • 7.500.000.000 human beings
  • something like 7.000.000 scientists in the world (1/1000)
  • 10% only survive, wich leaves us with 700.000 scientists

BUT, most of them (66%) are living in very densely populated area like the US, China and the UE which are logicaly the area that suffered the most from the mist (higher contamination, higher number of monsters, higher number of casualties, you get it…).

Let’s say those countries suffered two times more and we only got 475.000 people with a brain left.

Now, the truth is that a huge amount of those 475.000 scientists are doing some reasearch in fields like economics, geology etc… Interesting indeed but not among the most useful during the end of the world.
Let’s say that only half of them can actually be useful (from the haven’s and faction’s leaders points of view) : 237.500 left.

On the other hand, most havens shouldn’t count more than a 1000 inhabitant. 0.031% of them are potentialy “useful” scientist (3 per haven then). That means you need 4 havens under your control to get +10 science team which you will need to equip with decent and thus rare material…

IDK if I’m clear, english ain’t my mother tongue and I’m a bit rusted plus I’m pretty bad at explaining things haha…

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23

As I said before, though perhaps not quite as clearly, competition between the havens for limited resources is the force that will make scientific progress important. When your survival is at stake you look for the edge and that’s exactly what science provides. So don’t take such a simplisitic view based on numbers and civilisation taking a hit; as soon as the havens are actually established and are meeting people’s basic needs for survival they start to have a surplus of time. It’s the story of civilisation itself, all over again, but with the advantage of technical devices and expertise actually being available through scavenging and experimentation. Just like after the devastation of a world war, give a country a few decades, it will re-establish its industries… this is just on a microscale.

1 Like
24

This is an interesting approach but I see a flaw in your theory.

You’re talking about the post world war decades and what we call the “30 glorieuses” in my country and you are comparing it to the post mist decades. There is a huge difference : we were at peace back then, our minds were turned toward reconstruction and mourning, not fighting for survival.

Think about Maslow’s theory : do you think humanity will have time to think about thriving and competition when its very primal needs are endangered ?

Obviously you make a valid point and the greed of men doesn’t need to be proved but don’t you think that the state of the world after the mist might change that ?

EDIT : Also you’re talking about competition between havens for limited ressources. I wouldn’t say that these ressources are limited but rather very hard to access considering the shitload of monsters roaming around. Don’t you think cooperation is an easier way to achieve their objectives in that case ?

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25

Going back on topic, I mentioned UFO afterlight, because of the way they use scientist and technicians.

There are 3 clases: soldiers, scientists and technicians, and each class has his own pool of abilities you can train your people.

The interesting part are the hybrid classes, only scientist/soldiers can use medikits in the battlefiel and you have to train them to do it, only technicians/soldiers can use toolkits in the battlefield and you have to train them to do it, plus in base they can research/build depending on the class and in the map thye also can be used to build different outposts like radars(technicians) or terraforming stations(scientists)

When in base, in XcomApoc, you could train your troops in the arena or in the pshigym, maybe in PP when in base you could train you operatives in the arena for combat abilities and in a different facility they can learn more scientific stuff, i don’t know, how to use medikits better, how to gather alien samples in the battlefield (stun them), or they can learn technical stuff, how to use toolkits (for interacting with devices or repair things in the battlefield), how to set certain equipement on the battlefild (like the autoturrets), you get the idea…

In UFO afterlight they level up the soldier branch figthing, as you gain levels you can learn more abilities.

Scientist branch levels up reseraching on the lab or doing scientists stuff on the map, and the technician branch the same, they level up building items/facilities on base or doing their things on the map.

Then, those are the hybrid clases, pure soldiers, pure techniciansor pure scienstist, theres are technician/scientist hybrids too, but they can only level and train their class and do nothing on base/battlefiel depending on their class.

I think we could discuss how this concept could work on PP.

And I put a cople of links-> http://ufoafterblank.wikia.com/wiki/AL:Multiclass#Multiclass
-> http://ufoafterblank.wikia.com/wiki/AL:training

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26

I would prefer not to mess things and don’t be able to take scientists and engineers to missions unless objective would require such thing. And even if we would take them we would not equip them as typical soldiers. There could be standard set of equipment for them. Of course we could give them assault rifle during the mission but they would be so ineffective at using it that it wouldn’t be reasonable. And my thinking behind all of this is just additional development time needed for implementing those additional classes and some specialized and customizable items for them. Lets keep it simple.

PS. Really nice ideas there. But maybe we should ask for them in a sequel. :wink:

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27

Preface: My idea of “perfect game design” involves the player making meaningful but equally valid decisions

I see 2 broad scenarios:

A: We can take scientists and engies in the field, in which case they should get appropriate abilities and levels just like soldiers do. I’m thinking extremely basic combat abilities + something with an impact on the strategic side of things (gathering samples/scavenging perhaps?). This way taking them on mission is a critical choice: Do i sacrifice combat efficiency for a possible strategic edge, or do I leave the civies home because one of the monster-sized mutant is likely to make an appearance? The risk/reward ratio is easy to balance.

B: we have some “stay-at-home” scientists and engies, in which case giving them levels would pressure the player to acquire them as early as possible to maximize long term results. , and pushing the player towards maxing out the civies first is likely to carve out an awfully simple victory strategy. Maybe instead they get a custom ability on recruitment? This way they have some variety but you don’t have to design your entire early game strategy around them.

Regarding the “number of scientist left” debate, I feel like many of you are putting too much faith in statistics and too little in human nature and history: humans have always been curious, intelligent and driven to explore, even when they lived in caves and the animal kingdom represented a real, omnipresent threat. Even if all the current people defining their occupation as “scientists” died, there would still be plenty of smart people left and you can bet some of them would fill the void.

I’m not too fond of the “too busy for research” argument either, discoveries and research have come out of every corner of the world across all of recorded history, and, granted, there were some darker periods, but none so dark that the concept of discovery vanished altogether. If anything, hardship drives discovery as people look to science and technology to help them improve their standards.

I mean, if you think about it for a minute, if evil crab monsters started coming out of the ocean to attack, wouldn’t you try to find some weakness you can exploit or some new weapon that can break their carapace? Not only would it be very helpful to the war effort, but also much less deadly, and humans like “less deadly” and “helpful” :smiley:

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28

You are right obviously, if I were in a situation where I would face crabmen daily I’d probably try and find some tips to help me save my ass but there is a difference between “looking for a weekpoint and realizing that fire is more efficient than bullets” and “analyzing the organic composition of said crabmen to come up with the perfect enzym that’ll make it melt”.

To be clear, even if you’re smart and all, you need serious training and knowledge to develop tools even if you don’t need it to use them afterward. I’m sure finding people to work in a laboratory is gonna be easy but you still need some lead researcher with academical knowledge if you want to go somewhere IMHO.

Going back on topic, I strongly believe that a victory path that involves early focus on civilians must be avoided as well though. Sounds boring.

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0.031% is 31 in 100,000 (or roughly 3 in 10,000)

So you’d need 10 havens of 1,000 people in order to have 3 scientists.

(Plus the 0.1 - So maybe 3 scientists and a guy with a scientific foot or something) :wink:

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This is a good point, what we today class as ‘scientists’ might not be all that useful in an on the ground war against an alien invasion. But other people would step up, what is essentially needed as a ‘scientist’ in out situation is someone who can invent new ways to protect soldiers and/or wage war. From gunpowder to tea bags, history proves the frequency of new inventions accelerates during periods of war.

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Thanks mate, looks like I can’t read my numbers anymore haha.

You got me loling.

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32

Wotc started a little step in that direction, adding scientists and engineers to covert ops. I believe UFO: Afterlight really nailed this, where scientists and techs sometimes had to be included on certain missions (for here, say, you need an engineer with you to get a scarab up and running). They even had soldier levels so they wouldn’t be useless in a firefight. Of course, NJ has a soldier class for technician already, but I agree, it’d be nice to see scientists and engineers having to risk their hide every so often instead of sitting home taking up living quarters and using up all the coffee.

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33

Makes completely sense. I would argue that humankind, while indeed curious, is more driven by purpose. As example, you could consider how humankind reached space. Just a bit of simplified trivia for those you may not know about it.

The first long distance missiles were V1 and V2. They were created by Germany during WW2 because Hitler wanted to bomb London even though his armies were retreating. He needed new, long range artillery in order to vent his frustration ^^.

Then, after the world war, there was the “Cold War” (?). Well, it’s how we named it in France. Because both Russia and USA were afraid by the Bomb, they competed against each other in such a silly and childish way, using spies, and trying to impress each other by proving they could Bomb each other’s capital with very long range missiles. That’s where the conquest of Space came from. When Russia sent Gagarine in Space in 1961, the USA knew that they could bomb Washington easily. Actually they knew it since Spoutnik was lauched in 1957.

USA hired the old nazi scientists who created V1 and V2 in order to fuel project Apollo.

Humankind is curious, but the biggest research progress never came from peaceful times. It always started with a need, a problem to solve. Colombo was hired to find a new, fastest way to India, in order to compete with the trade route guys like Vasco de Gama created. It’s always the same.

Nowadays, progress stalls. There is no need anymore to rush and reach Mars. This is not economically worth it. Because R&D nowadays is all about making money. Money is everything: the world could end torromow, they wouldn’t care of anything but how much they got from their last investment. If anything, R&D nowadays is not about progress, but about simplification of things and accessibility. Society has become complacent, because there is no urge anymore. And guys with money use the rotten economic system created by the USA (ultra liberalism) in order to make more money.

It’s the same stupid things as ever. Mankind is full of potential but hindered by its own stupidity. So… Considering what was said in this topic, i kind of believe that if you give factions a real need for improvement, they will show their potential to adapt. If they have rivals, they will be too stupid to not think about wanting to overcome them, whatever the situation is with pandoravirus. Humankind is great when it comes to adapt, but terrible, when it comes to anticipate.

I don’t think research would stall in the case of PP situation. Factions would have reasons. Stupid and rotten ones. At most, they would need 10 years to adapt and make their research efficient. And it’s 2050.

I like the idea of having scientists and egineers not just being 1 point for un project. I would like to see them in game. When visiting the labs. In tactical combat when our base is attacked. The labs should look more and more busy as your number of scientists increase. And even though i agree that it would nice if there were more to them that just numbers in a UI, i believe things shouldn’t be pushed too far. and @bobchaos explained why pretty well.

EDIT: incorrect historical date.

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34

Most, if not all, of the western world calls it the Cold War too

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35

I would disagree. It may be not worth to colonize Mars, but to reach it? It surely is worth a try. Elon Musk knows it. Bezos and guys from NASA and China’s NASA knows it. :wink:

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What you say is intriguing. This probably means i missed something while researching the topic. I will probably look into this further sometime in the future.

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I never finished it, or played it much for that matter (one of these days…), but didn’t XCOM: Apocalypse have it set up where scientists and engineers were more individually represented and leveled like the soldiers? I even thought that if there was a base assault they would be show up as controllable personnel. I’ve heard it tossed around (somewhere) that Phoenix Point is something of a spiritual successor to that game in some ways.

Also please don’t let my post derail the discussion on scientists and historical extrapolation - I just had nothing worthwhile to contribute to that part of the discussion :slight_smile:

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I didn’t get to play Apoc that much, either. UFO Aftermath/light has scientists and engineers that levelled as those doing base work and also had soldier levels, as some missions required one of them.

While there is a good point that human ingenuity never dies, its often tempered by what exists and what is needed, as well. This is why going to Mars isn’t that important to most. Going to the moon meant something at the time, and thus it was heavily supported at the time. The day folks find out the Earth is about to disintegrate under their feet, Going to Mars will suddenly be a lot more important.

A distinction probably also needs to be made in what’s possible in the “aftermath”. You may have scientific minded folks around, who have curiosity, but if their experience is in botany, they aren’t going to help that much in developing lasers. In the same vein, engineers are curious and scientifically minded as well, but someone who knows how to build say, remote robots isn’t going to get you from lasers to plasmas. It’s very possible they could jigger a way to get +2 damage lasers or lasers with 4 more shots in the battery, though.

So a blanket “humans will be humans” can’t completely throw out an argument of not much of humanity being left. Synedrion made a special attempt to save as many scientists as they could, which is helpful, but even scientists don’t just KNOW everything about their work. Previous research notes and projects being destroyed will set them back a lot.

Aaaaand I’m rambling. Sorry folks

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39

Mars is mostly hollow rock. Only benefit it gives compared to the moon is that its capable of holding some atmosphere and is more suitable for colonization.
And btw, landing people on moon was, considering scientific progress / benefits, just a huge waste of resource.
It gave us nothing. We often chase things we dont need, modern economics is built on that fact.

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40

Well, but flight to Moon were step for flights to Mars. And we had to check, if Moon is useful or not. Without those flight we stil woudn’t know. :wink:

Mars is hollow rock… with resources, can be used as base for missions to Jupiter moons. Actually it won’t hold atmosphere. NASA already stated that terraformation of Mars would be impossible without magnetopshere and enough carbon dioxide near the surface.

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