Changing AP system from 4 to 8 (or even 12)?

Ok, your idea is a miniRB from Snap-shot mode

(tracks target / mass center from visible / available targets)

  • miniRB is 2 burst (2 standard shots from the current weapon -X% accuracy) at 3AP.

@drages, and if a burst from HW costs 2AP, then a miniRB is …?

But what if you swap the skills of RB and Brawler in places?
RB - Lvl1, Brawler - Lvl7

Brawler should go to the Berserker and for that the Heavy should get Armor Break (low on lvl 1 or high on lvl 7).
IMO, fits better both roles.

And when we already switch around, then also Close quarter evade for War Cry.

It would buff its main weapon for 50% more damage … sounds not really weak in my book.

Ok is logical, but berserker is the weakest single class, it would make this class even weaker.

See above :wink:

Additional, a little info about Brawler that is often forgotten:

Bash and melee attacks deal 50% more damage

And compared to Armor Break, what I think is more a support ability that mostly doesn’t help the Berserker but his buddies, it would be a direct buff for himself.

Edit, to make it more complete.

These two classes are both meant to go close and personal, the Heavy with its inaccurate heavy weapon and high armor and the Berserker with melee and some skills to also get somehow tanky.
In theory a dual classed Heavy / Berserker is probably the most tanky and also very flexible close quarter build in the game:

  • heavy armor + close quarter evade + ingore pain = Tank
  • Jump Jet = mobility
  • Pistols, heavy guns, grenade launcher, mounted weapons, melee weapons = just wow
  • Rage Burst or Adrenaline Rush = different possibilites to pump up its damage output up to nowhere.
  • Boom Blast = nothing more to say, but doesn’t fit the close quarter specialist role

But, IMO, some base skills are not on the right class …

I will try this in my next run, sounds really strong :wink:

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Thats a good point.
But the berserker has to be close enough on his own and not to rely on multiclassing. Maybe a jump skill (1/3 range from jet jump) for 1AP

And: Something needs to be done about this 1AP torso. Either a reinforced counterweight as a permanent disadvantage or throw out this 1AP melee skill.

1/3 is not much, roughly 7 tiles, but could of course help a bit. But where? Or as a base perk?

I would also prefer to change Bloodlust because I think this is a stupid skill. Receiving buffs on speed and damage when wounded? Also it is easily abusable. I would make this one also more a tank skill and so that any abuse by self damaging is not worth it. Or completely away from received damage in direction to damage that he has dealt to enemies.

Yes, one use per turn 0-1 WP cost.
It is just an attempt to increase mobility for a class whose effectiveness and eligibility depend precisely on it.

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Maybe something like the Leap ability of Mutogs with agile legs:

Agile Mutogs have Leap ability - Leap to target location within 10 tiles.

Never used but AFAIK it is a one time per turn ability for 1 AP.

Edit: And THEN dual class to Heavy … :flushed:

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Overall, yes, I would exchange Armor Break and Brawler.

The problem with Armor Break is that it’s uniquely unsuited for melee combat, because you can’t choose which body part to hit and because melee weapons have such a high damage per hit that once you can hit something with melee you typically don’t have to worry about armor.

However, I think it would be absolutely fantastic for Heavy, because it works really well with all of its weapons.

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This skill should be changed to

  • Armor Penetration - Attack in the area of ​​2 tiles from the enemy, ignores “30?” armor, but only uses “70%?” from total damage.

@MadSkunky Imo, using this skill without distance limitation is illegal.

And give the QA to the Berserker, you can replace it with the Close quarter evade (<= and delete it).

Too complex, and too situational.

One idea I heard was give QA to Assault, replacing Dash, give Dash to Berserker to replace Armor Break, make extreme focus give free Overwatch, instead of reducing cost by 1 AP.

(Not sure what would QA be replaced with, maybe in that scenario with Armor Break)

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Then remove the damage penalty. Any situation of using Melee.

But that’s the whole problem: armor break is a bad skill for melee

Imo, QA is a very specific skill that should be given to all classes. But if alone, then I prefer Bers. This class makes use of good Initiative with poor Precision.

armor Piercing

Same difference :slight_smile:

Melee weapons are high damage per hit, they don’t benefit that much from armor piercing. But in addition to that you can’t target specific body parts with melee, so what’s the point of being able to shred/pierce armor?

This is a question for Devs.
I can only add that this skill will help with both the Hammer and the Pistol. But giving the magic of breaking armor at a distance is nonsense.

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Well, magic or meta is the by-product of certain design decisions. When it comes to character progression, the idea is too allow many different combinations with a fairly limited number of elements. This means that all skills are meant to be useful for all classes.

It would be easy to make Berserker into a melee class, for example restricting Bloodlust and Adrenaline Rush to melee weapons, but a decision was made to avoid that: to make Bloodlust and Adrenaline Rush useful for all classes.

Now, I think it’s a very interesting discussion whether such approach is worth it or not (and it has been ongoing since release and before that).

The pros is that we have many different combinations, and even after a long time players come up with new viable builds with a fairly limited number of skills and stats. The cons is that it creates balance issues and that the magic/meta is not realistic and not intuitive.

How likely are the devs to review this design choice at this point? Idk. Can it be somewhat modulated to keep it open and less meta/magic? Perhaps, but the replacement has to be something open, i.e. as useful as possible regardless of class.


It would be more interesting for me to try the gameplay where such a Bers will be in a multiclass with Assault. AR and Grenade, Sword and Pistol. Imo, only more options for application. Tactics are born in Limits.
When Strength ceases to matter, then Mastery is born.

I see where you are looking (what you want). The problem is that it cannot be in the same cauldron with Tactics. (To this day, Other Devs have always built rules/ limits and it worked.)
If it’s within the Rookie / Veteran boundaries, I Agree.

Building broken rules is common. But to
create a Rule with “internal and external” Harmony, Development equal to Genius.

Games need rules, yes. And there are rules and limits in PP character progression system. What you want different rules and limits.

Geniality in this case is coming up with a skill that would be

  1. useful to all classes (so respect the design parameters)

  2. make sense intuitively

  3. be fun to use (and balance is part of the fun)

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To experience “other rules” / sensations, for example “free fall”. The Extreme needs to “observe Harmony” / know the Current rules in Perfection:

  • rules for preparing a jump: training, equipment, airplane …
  • rules at the time of parachute disclosure …
  • adherence to landing rules …

A Giant system of hard rules can allow you to “be free” for a short period of time. And few people can and choose this path.