Arthron Umbra ... eh ... What is up with this? (Possible spoiler)

[Voltyr]

@Ementrude

Plan B is always to stun the Arthron instead of killing it. It’s a much more efficient way of disabling them before they turn into something nasty and then it’s “hey free food” afterwards

This is absolutely true! Like I said, there are certainly ways of dealing with them.

@MichaelIgnotus

TBH, I think PP is seriously lacking scary enemies atmo - the Siren is easily dealable with, and the Scylla is so stupid that she is more a moving target than an actual threat. Yes, the Umbra does force you to change your play style, and that’s the point. As the enemy evolves, you have to evolve your tactics to deal with them.

Again, I am aware of the counters. This isn’t a case of “I’m mad because I’m bad.” I was terrible at the game when I started because I was still thinking in Xcom’s terms, but I recognized that the problem was me not playing the game on its own terms. That’s fine, great even, it’s fun to improve and overcome. This is not the issue I’m having.

The issue I have with this is that the required counters are not only specific, but also actively slow down the game and penalize you for trying out different things. You’re punished for not having fire or multiple paralyzing weapons on hand. You’re punished for using melee. You’re punished for killing an enemy at the end of your turn without plenty of overwatches ready. You’re punished for running with a squishy stealth squad even if you’ve made it work for all encounters up until that point. If you fail to counter them, you could even make the argument that you’re punished for investing in your soldiers too heavily since they’ll just die.

This way of forcing the player to adapt so radically, probably halfway through the campaign after they’ve already solidified an idea of a playstyle or some class and augment combinations they want to try out, it all feels like it’s aimed specifically at the players who want that experience of having to change on the fly and meet every new threat with new equipment and tactics on the spot. In other words, it sounds like it’s made for the people who would play on Heroic or Legendary. I play on Veteran because I’m here not to beat the game, but to experience what it has. I want to try out new ideas, field test new class and weapon combinations. The process of experimenting in a relatively safe space is a big part of the appeal of the lower difficulties, and this one mechanic essentially strips you of the ability to do so.

@MichaelIgnotus

I seem to remember similar cries of anguish when players first encountered Chryssalids in XCOM. But people eventually learned how to deal with them.

Chryssalids and Faceless from Xcom are an obvious comparison, but also a very unfavourable one for the Umbra. Ever wonder why you initially encounter those enemies only on terror missions and the Xcom 2 equivalent? It’s so that you know, going into that mission, that you’ll have to gear up for a particular type of challenge. You don’t have to change your playstyle globally to deal with them, only on those missions. And by the time those enemy types branch out into other missions, they can no longer one-shot your soldiers and are pretty easy to take down, so all they do is add some spice to an otherwise cut and dry situation. Umbra arthrons can spawn anywhere, force a global change of plans on already established playstyles, are difficult to take down even in the late game (I can start the final mission by now) and can easily kill lesser armoured soldiers in two hits, which they’ll easily have enough action points left for if you killed the host arthron at mid-range or closer.

To both of you who replied, thank you for your thoughts by the way! I obviously came here to vent, but also because I’m concerned about the design philosophy behind this mechanic. It’s nice to get an outside perspective. I was initially of the opinion that Umbra were just a straight-up garbage addition, but different people play the game for different reasons, and now I think they have a place in Legendary and Heroic at least.

[MichaelIgnotus]

Voltyr, I’m with you on the whole Difficulty thing - as I say, there is a very strong argument for nerfing or even removing Umbras on Easy and Veteran.

And thank you for the reasoned debate - it’s a refreshing facet of this forum that you rarely get shouted at or called an unthinking fanboy for expressing a contrary opinion and pointing out where you disagree with the OP.

I must admit, my memory of a first encounter with Chryssalids was the classic wtf?!?!!! when my guy got eviscerated, then respawned as a zombie and marmalised one of his buddies - so I think the initial introduction has much the same vibe. Also, as I’ve said many times before, PP does not hold your hand the same way that XCOM does - it doesn’t go: “This is a Big Bad Mission - expect the unexpected.” It simply assumes that you will expect to do so as a matter of course, because the Pandas are constantly evolving.

You’re right that players on Veteran or Easy should have some expectation that the game won’t just arbitrarily kill them for no readily apparent reason, but similarly players on Heroic and Legendary should go into every mission expecting some curve ball to come out of nowhere.

However, if you’ve signed up to PP, you have implicitly signed up to a game which explicitly states that it will throw at you: ‘a constantly evolving enemy who forces you to change your tactics’, as that’s one of the USPs of the game.

TBH, I don’t think it’s there yet - I don’t think Panda Evolution is anywhere near as reactive as what was implied in the marketing. But it’s getting there, and the Umbra is an extreme example of the kind of surprise you should automatically expect if you sign up to this game.

[rasvoja]

@MichaelIgnotus

I must admit, my memory of a first encounter with Chryssalids was the classic wtf?!?!!! when my guy got eviscerated, then respawned as a zombie and marmalised one of his buddies - so I think the initial introduction has much the same vibe.

Yup, we need a Crysallid remake. If I applaud Fireaxis Xcom for something, they did Crysallid remake right.

I must admit I havent encountered Umbras so far, but as Pandorans get new abilities, I am not surprised. I can mutate soldiers with shadow step, surely they can. However facing a lot of them would be a hard factor.

I must say that second half of game gets quite tricky as you cant boost soldier stats any further. So I would vote for unlimited soldier strength scale, since new weapons are just adaptation of old, and in the end there is new armor. Imbalances to Panda side gets stronger, way too much.

[Voltyr]

@MichaelIgnotus

However, if you’ve signed up to PP, you have implicitly signed up to a game which explicitly states that it will throw at you: ‘a constantly evolving enemy who forces you to change your tactics’, as that’s one of the USPs of the game.

TBH, I don’t think it’s there yet - I don’t think Panda Evolution is anywhere near as reactive as what was implied in the marketing. But it’s getting there, and the Umbra is an extreme example of the kind of surprise you should automatically expect if you sign up to this game.

This is true! Phoenix Point has a lot of surprises, but one thing it mentions up-front is that it aims to have the enemy change and throw you for a loop. This new update has been a massive step in that direction, and it’s all mostly for the better. It’s just a bummer that often times “adapting” in this game means “get different equipment and spec your soldiers differently”. The most satisfying parts of the game are when it changes the way you use what you have in the moment. That’s a very difficult thing to stimulate though.

@rasvoja

I must say that second half of game gets quite tricky as you cant boost soldier stats any further. So I would vote for unlimited soldier strength scale, since new weapons are just adaptation of old, and in the end there is new armor. Imbalances to Panda side gets stronger, way too much.

I kind of agree, enemies in the late-game can easily out-scale your troops, while also far outnumbering you. The action economy gets way out of whack, and we could use more ways to deal with it. On higher difficulties, you could increase the cost of these late-game hypothetical countermeasures to preserve the difficulty curve.

I’m beginning to think that the game could greatly benefit from a simulation mode, where you launch into a no-consequence mission that plays a lot like an Xcom 2 multiplayer mission. That way you get to experiment to your heart’s content before having to put your plans into practice. Would save novices a lot of frustrating situations where they have to start the game over because they wasted too many resources making terrible soldier builds and investing in the wrong equipment for their situation.
Or, you know, the classes, vehicles and equipment could be balanced better, but as someone who has tried to design this type of game before, that’s a daunting and difficult task at the best of times so I don’t blame them for the fact that the balance is a work in progress.

[MichaelIgnotus]

@Voltyr

I kind of agree, enemies in the late-game can easily out-scale your troops, while also far outnumbering you. The action economy gets way out of whack, and we could use more ways to deal with it.

There are others on these forums who would beg to differ.

One of the big problems with this kind of game - writ large with PP - is the classic inverse difficulty curve. If you know how to optimise your soldier builds, and want to go that way, it is very easy to create Terminators who can effectively break the game by neutralising all enemies on the first turn.

Even if you don’t use Terminators, it’s fairly easy to disable the opposition with a well-placed barrage from a couple of Boom-Blasting Heavies , or spam them with Spider Drones or Turrets, or any of the other OP ways that high-level squads can take down the opposition. I recently read a report from another member of the Community Council which described in detail how he completely wiped out the defenders in the first room of the final Palace Mission in no more than 3 turns without even resorting to Terminator tactics.

I personally find the endgame pretty well balanced - but I play on Heroic with handfuls of self-limitations to keep my Squad honest. But I know some who find it ludicrously easy and others who find it punishingly hard.

Which is why I am on a never-ending quest to persuade the devs to introduce Second Wave Options that would allow each player to tailour the experience to their specific play style and level of ability.
This game will sing and live as long as XCOM when the devs finally give players the option both to mod it and to set Second Wave Options that suit their preferences.

[VOLAND]

Umbras are one of the main reasons I play with LOTA on, so I do like them.

However,

1. the purple breath they exhale is impossible to spot unless you zoom all the way in, and look for it, and
2. I have the feeling that the Tar Shadow ability is not counted enough towards the cost of deploying the unit (in other words, that you can have too many Arthrons with this ability on lower difficulties)

@Voltyr

The issue I have with this is that the required counters are not only specific, but also actively slow down the game and penalize you for trying out different things.

I think that though there are some more or less specific counters (paralysis, mind control, fire, sonic damage, psychic damage… though TBH they are not really that specific), you also have the option of disabling limbs (and leaving the host alive), or just setting OW with a high damage weapon (Deceptor/shotgun) + any AR, and/or avoid engaging the host until you can deal with the Umbra.

Personally, I have always seen Umbra as a great reactivity measure, or a punishment for killing without thinking. Admittedly I do want the game to have more risks for going Cobra Kai every time…

[Voltyr]

@MichaelIgnotus

One of the big problems with this kind of game - writ large with PP - is the classic inverse difficulty curve. If you know how to optimise your soldier builds, and want to go that way, it is very easy to create Terminators who can effectively break the game by neutralising all enemies on the first turn.

You’re definitely not wrong, I’ve seen the same stories you’re referencing of people just snowballing out of control, but I haven’t experienced it myself.

@MichaelIgnotus

Even if you don’t use Terminators, it’s fairly easy to disable the opposition with a well-placed barrage from a couple of Boom-Blasting Heavies , or spam them with Spider Drones or Turrets, or any of the other OP ways that high-level squads can take down the opposition.

Maybe I’m playing terribly on the strategic layer to have so few resources, but I cannot imagine having multiple heavies spamming grenades like it’s nothing. Those things cost so much. I only have two teams and four bases, and it’s been a struggle to equip the troops properly while also maintaining sufficient coverage to respond to threats on the geoscape. Do you just have to steal aircraft in the early game, run every scavenger mission the moment you find it, and recruit like crazy early on? That sounds like a lot less fun than building up your squads slowly over time and getting to know them, but I’m getting the feeling you’re expected to boom out of control early.

@MichaelIgnotus

Which is why I am on a never-ending quest to persuade the devs to introduce Second Wave Options that would allow each player to tailour the experience to their specific play style and level of ability.
This game will sing and live as long as XCOM when the devs finally give players the option both to mod it and to set Second Wave Options that suit their preferences.

This is the big one. Customizability is key. PP has so many moving parts, it’s so intricate, that you cannot possibly hope to balance it for every player, especially since different players want different things out of the game. Let the players tailor the game to their liking, and you’ll instantly eliminate half the complaints on the forum and ensure the game’s longevity.

@VOLAND

you also have the option of disabling limbs (and leaving the host alive), or just setting OW with a high damage weapon (Deceptor/shotgun) + any AR, and/or avoid engaging the host until you can deal with the Umbra.

Avoiding the Umbra is very difficult based on the fact that any arthron can be an Umbra once the event pops. The purple smoke that apparently functions as a tell has eluded me thusfar and I really don’t think it’s reasonable to expect players to pay attention to that in a game that already has so much visual information. Your mileage may vary, but it’s well beyond the scope of what I would consider practical or fun. That said, I can see the idea of certain missions playing mindgames with you being very fun with the right execution. Always be on your guard, be suspicious of every enemy, feel paranoia taking over… It’s potentially good stuff! But unless you find the game much too easy, why would want every mission to be like that? It turns the game into a very different one from the one you were playing a moment ago. What if you were enjoying the game you were playing a moment ago?

@VOLAND

Personally, I have always seen Umbra as a great reactivity measure, or a punishment for killing without thinking. Admittedly I do want the game to have more risks for going Cobra Kai every time…

Does it really punish “killing without thinking” though? It punishes you for not respecting the possibility that the enemy may be host to an Umbra, sure, but it doesn’t punish you for playing the game in a braindead manner. Just use nothing but paralysis weapons the moment you get access to them and now the game has returned to a state similar to where it was before. You don’t get Rapid Clearance, but virtually all your action economy breaking abilities still work just fine. It limits your options indiscrimately but doesn’t stop you from brute-forcing it if you want to. In short, Umbra units address the issue of easy killing sprees not by tackling the problem, but by introducing a new variable that has a destructive effect on other, already weaker strategies.

[sectoid_br]

I personally think that just making umbra hosts more identifiable would go a long way. Make them exhale purple smoke from their entire body, for example. Something instantly recognizable, as they’re not a different enemy type.

@VOLAND

I have the feeling that the Tar Shadow ability is not counted enough towards the cost of deploying the unit (in other words, that you can have too many Arthrons with this ability on lower difficulties)

Also this, if it’s the case.

[Voltyr]

Making them easily identifiable would help a lot. As it stands, I’m dealing with them. I’ve played for several more hours since I first voiced my complaint and I haven’t lost anyone to the Umbra since. But the fact remains that before they showed up, I was having a great time, and now I’m really not. I’m just playing to see the ending at this point.

[Ementrude]

@Voltyr

Making them easily identifiable would help a lot. As it stands, I’m dealing with them.

I recognise this might be an improvement, but perhaps there is another issue playing out here. I suspect that there maybe a lot of players who don’t or can’t take dealing with loses. I personal keep acquiring and training soldiers to act a replacements, but I like the addition of lose to demonstrate the challenge in the game. If it is continuously too easy then what is the point? For the record I am playing relaxed on veteran level at the moment.

If players are not able to deal with loses perhaps there is a misbalance in the game?? There certainly are plenty of soldiers and resource to be had in the game. But isn’t permanent death a major concept in this genre? I remember Jake Solomon bragging about it being back as a concept in Xcom to satisfy the gaming audience back in 2012.

[VOLAND]

@Voltyr

Just use nothing but paralysis weapons the moment you get access to them and now the game has returned to a state similar to where it was before.

There are some strategies that can be pursued leaning heavily on paralyzing weapons, but it has a few limitations: these are sniper weapons (and berserker, for pistols), so you have a problem with proficiencies for other classes; you don’t get WP for kills to fuel the skills and abilities, and paralyze damage doesn’t scale with damage buffs and is rather limited, so when facing a lot of high-strength enemies at the same time you may have a problem paralyzing them all before they can act.

@Voltyr

The purple smoke that apparently functions as a tell has eluded me thusfar and I really don’t think it’s reasonable to expect players to pay attention to that in a game that already has so much visual information.

I agree, it’s very, very hard to spot and this is something that we are asking the devs to fix.

@Voltyr

But the fact remains that before they showed up, I was having a great time, and now I’m really not.

I hope they will grow on you yet

[Voltyr]

@Ementrude

If players are not able to deal with loses perhaps there is a misbalance in the game?? There certainly are plenty of soldiers and resource to be had in the game. But isn’t permanent death a major concept in this genre? I remember Jake Solomon bragging about it being back as a concept in Xcom to satisfy the gaming audience back in 2012.

Losing soldiers is cool and can make for some very dramatic stories. I like to feel like the loss is either my fault, or was a necessary sacrifice to overcome insurmountable odds though. Losing someone in Phoenix Point basically equates to losing the time, skill points, resources and emotional attachment you’ve invested, and that kind of setback can be frustrating when it happens seemingly arbitrarily. There’s a balance to be struck.

I agree though that losing people is a staple of the genre and that without it, a game like PP just wouldn’t have the same tension. Losing someone occasionally can really raise the stakes.

@VOLAND

I hope they will grow on you yet

Thanks! I’m just much more geared towards experimentation and the thematic elements of the game’s lore than I am towards the challenge. That may change once I’ve gotten a few wins under my belt and the game doesn’t hold any novelty anymore. In this respect I kind of wish I had left LotA out of this campaign and only included it on the next run. Had I known about the difficulty, I probably would’ve.

[Ementrude]

@Voltyr

In this respect I kind of wish I had left LotA out of this campaign and only included it on the next run. Had I known about the difficulty, I probably would’ve.

I wholeheartedly agree, it’s more of a late game aspect, especially with the incredibly powerful weapons that are acquired.

[rasvoja]

@MichaelIgnotus

But I know some who find it ludicrously easy and others who find it punishingly hard.

I find entity to be placeholder for real active end boss. Like easy solution to something that should be more fun. For me its hard, but doable with heavy - rage burst tatics and eye killing and lot of medikits. I bet you can count people that find it real easy on one hand fingers.

[walan]

@VOLAND

Personally, I have always seen Umbra as a great reactivity measure, or a punishment for killing without thinning. Admittedly I do want the game to have more risks for going Cobra Kai every time…

+1
I had only two times a Wtf Moment with PP and it was the Umbra and bomb Chiron. And that in good way …
Bomb Chiron is practically gone (don’t seen them in my last playthrough).
So the Umbra is the last one and that thing could kill some of my soldiers, which is ok.
Some kind of devastating is that it can attack you 3-4 times right after the reborn, if next to one soldier.

Maybe it could reborn with only 2AP and after that first turn it can have the full 4AP?

[sectoid_br]

Good proposal! It could also have less speed depending on difficulty.

[Karanshade]

Umbra spawing another Umbra. Ok now I’m on the ‘that is too much’ side

[Phoenix82]

Completed the game, and while it was a surprise the first time, I found out that killing the host with fire prevents spawning of Umbra’s… never had more fun using flamethrowers and pyro grenades than roasting those annoying shadow mist crabs. Sometimes I just leave them be by paralyzing them or making them combat harmless, by removing their weapons.

EDIT: It would be appreciated if the hints would say, what can deal with the spawning effectively - flame, maybe poison/acid too?

I would also be fine with disabling them on Easy - they should not be removed from other difficulties though

[MadSkunky]

@Phoenix82

EDIT: It would be appreciated if the hints would say, what can deal with the spawning effectively - flame, maybe poison/acid too?

Actually also when the host is killed with explosives, but as in the other thread mentioned, I don’t know if this intentional or a bug.

[Lorifel]

@walan

Maybe it could reborn with only 2AP and after that first turn it can have the full 4AP?

While Umbra is going to be spawn it may be affected by War Cry from the Heavy. This way it is spawned with only 2AP. So if nobody is standing next to the place it will have to move + attack. This way it will be limited to only one hit per turn.
I’ve learned the hard way that you can’t panic Umbra with virus weapons. However you can daze it, and if it has only 1 AP and nobody is standing close, it can’t attack that turn.