I like the idea of ‘Set Up’ or ‘Anchor’. If you don’t move and fire, you get X% to accuracy. But if you do, you lose that bonus.
It would make the heavy akin to a weapon emplacement. Where you have to put him in a tactically advantageous position to get the most out of the class. Kinda like a Sniper.
Well, comparing NJ armors it’s 40 to 24, and those 16 pts are crucial because limbs have 60 HPs each… Without a Heavy Armor if the Pincer hits on an arm, it will be disabled with one hit.
Strength is important for global HPs, but the only way of protecting limbs is with Armor. That’s why Heavy Armor is king with fire, and with explosives and best option with acid.
Actually, I give the Heavy Helmet to my melee fighters. I don’t give the torso armor because only Heavies can use it without a chance for ‘fumble’. Heavy leg armor admittedly don’t make much sense on their own, but as enemies target the body part with least armor, leaving legs unprotected while wearing Heavy Armor elsewhere doesn’t make sense.
I said, I saw a NY heavy with full armor died with 3 hit with the pincher. He died and you say it saves the limbs. So your soldier can die in one turn against a melee with the heaviest armor but his arm was intact. I would expect a heavy armor to be more usefull with those penalties…
I’m talking about what a single attack with the pincer does. NJ HA is the only armor capable of stopping that attack from disabling a limb with a single hit.
No offense, but you have written like five posts here and elsewhere on the same topic today, I can’t respond to everyone and everything all at once 
You don’t need to answer at all of course. No offence here too. Just it looks a bit forced to try to defend the class here when people comes with very logical reasons.
I try to say, the soldier who send you infront of enemies with jumpjet and bash them with a huge gun can die with 3 melee attacks. There is nothing to defend here. Because every word is wrong here.
[quote=“VOLAND, post:44, topic:11322”]
I’m talking about what a single attack with the pincer does. NJ HA is the only armor capable of stopping that attack from disabling a limb with a single hit.
[/quote] An Arthron can strike 3 times.
Just as your arguments look very logical to you and other players, my arguments look very logical to me and to other players. Please a
consider also that Snapshot receives tons of telemetry data on how the game is being played - that’s their primary tool for detecting biases in what tools the players choose to use. The logical assumption here is that the players are not ditching Heavy Armor for Heavies en masse because it’s terrible, horrible, absolutely no good.
Now, to be precise, my argument is that Heavy in Heavy Armor using Heavy Weapons is a viable choice. I can also say that within my particular play style I find it one of the best classes. However, if we are talking about optimised play styles, there is no room there for Heavy Armor at all. If we are talking about OP holes that allow Assaults to clear half or entire maps using Rapid Clearance, forget about Heavies in HA. Or Infiltrators that do double damage with everything, including explosives. If the argument is “why can’t the Heavy be as good as that?”, my response is “the other classes need to be nerfed until they are not so good.”
Yes, it’s definitely a terrible strategy. It would make some sense if you jumped and then WCed a bunch of them (IME melee enemies under WC usually waste their remaining APs).
Jumping in front of an evolved melee Arthon to bash it is suicidal.
Things that make sense to do with Heavies and fast moving, advanced melee enemies: set OW with a HW at very short distance. Also using the Dante on them, if they are close enough. When you have assaults around and the enemy has a shield deployed it, it does make sense to shoot at it with a Hel 2 Cannon, especially with distance under 10 tiles. The advantage of the Cannon is that it doesn’t matter as much where it hits - it will blow away the shield, possible daze the Arthon and the assault can finish it off.
If you invest in the build, yes. It also damages the weapon though. There is an ongoing discussion among players about melee vs bash, and tbh I don’t have a firm opinion on it. I wish that one day melee combat could be more involved with stuff like “engaged” status and “attack of opportunity”, etc., which would add some advantages to melee weapons vs bash.
However, bashing being better than shooting is only true if you are looking at the Heavy as the sole damage dealer, without taking into account synergies from using combined tactics. For example, if I have a Heavy and an Assault facing a Siren, I might use the Heavy to break the armor of Siren’s tail with the Hel 2 Cannon or Deceptor, and then finish her with the Assault. Or if I have a Heavy with a Deceptor and a Sniper with Mark for Death.
Also, whether I want to close the distance with
an enemy, or not is always situational.
If you put yourself in a position where your operative can be hit 3 times by a Pincer and has under 200 HPs (assuming all hits land on the least protected body part, the head, which has 33 armor = 95 - 33 + 95 - 32 + 95 - 31 + 10 [for bleeding next turn]) I’m sorry, but that’s on you . Was there any armor in any X-Com or XCom game that could protect you from 3 melee attacks of an elite enemy?
As I said, it’s a trade off - if you want accuracy, lose the protection offered by the armor. If you want the armor, lose the accuracy. I’m not saying there can’t be minor adjustments here and there, but the general approach looks sound to me.
I’m not sure how you are making those comparisons. SRs have the lowest damage per AP and don’t shred armor, but have the advantage of high accuracy and high damage per projectile. ARs do the highest damage per AP and some shred, but have low damage per projectile. Hel 2 Cannon has the highest damage per projectile in the game, high shred and shock damage, but low accuracy. Deceptor has the highest damage per AP, good shred, but low accuracy.
Thank you for your time. This conversation can go forever, because you like to use your heavy a bit weird then it used at this genre. For those reasons, you like it.
Your examples are mostly you are outnumbered the enemy which is not at my case. After you jump to the enemy, you can’t know there is more out of your WC range and even “1” hit cripple your soldier very badly at heavy armor so I don’t know how you survive. If you just jump on when there is not much enemy left, it’s just another story.
I would like to see your game style somehow because I just can’t imagine it.
It’s not about my idea only, I talk with other game examples too. This heavy is “not heavy”. It’s a brute melee class which uses big melee weapons… but it’s so strange that i can’t classify exactly but not “heavy”… this is the problem.
You want to nerf all of them until they are not fun (i dont say they don’t need re-balance) to play. Probably you are a hardcore player who likes to enjoy most limited/hard games. This is an option and I totally respect but it’s not fun for most of the players. As you are the only one here who just defends the class so badly with everything.
So there is no need to discuss with you as our taste are different. But I don’t talk about a special game style, I talk about a heavy class at this type of games. We don’t enjoy our heavy as it is, so limited and weird…
That’s my opinion too.
And this.
Yeah, I have to kinda agree. The problem is tinkering with the Heavy Weapons themselves is counterproductive because if you increase their accuracy, they will be even better for snipers. Also, if you remove the penalty to accuracy from HA I think you would be making it too good.
What I would suggest is that the HA legs should have a “stability stance” ability, like the Chirons. So you can enter and leave it for 1AP and it increases accuracy by 50%.
Thoughts?
Edit: while in stability stance you cannot move, as is the case now with Chirons
Does this mean covers do not count?
An enemy is hiding behind full or partial cover? - don’t bother, shoot through it.
That solution seems reasonable for believability and game mechanics.
Hey, my pleasure
Hang on, how do you know what is “fun” for “most” players? Where is your data?
Heaves are kill machines in the beginning with bash: jet jump + one hit kills with bash. Later on, they fire missiles + are very good at killing spawneries with a flamethrower.
Run without speed penalty with heavy armor and hit from far behind is not fun for me, not in a tactical game 
I agree about heavy weapons.
I still think that heavy armor has too much penalties.
About stability stance, YES! That’s a great idea. I forgot that we have this skill and it meets our needs
perfectly.
I’m alright whether we’d had it as a Heavy class or as a HA legs skill (legs would be even better, since you would not be able to cheese that easy with Infiltrator). I’d love to have bit less accuracy bonus and AP cost reduction for direct fire heavy weapons to get more dakka…but either way it would be a fine addition. And that entering / leaving stance functionality and not moving while it’s on fits perfecty heavy weapons theme.
Heavy would be finally useful in the mid range (as he should be).
Ok 
I can’t see any obvious problems with the stability stance…
Have to consider augs, but I think it works with what we have in the game:
Stomper legs give 30 armor -2 to Speed and +20 to Accuracy, so with full HA kit it would add to a - 10% to Accuracy, while the Stability Stance would give +10% Accuracy overall, but cost 1AP. So the Stomper legs are probably slightly better, more flexible in their use, but HA legs would be a valid alternative.
Same with Armadillo legs bionic; IRRC correctly it gives 40 armor, - 1 SPD, + 5% to accuracy.
As I said… some people wants to burn in hell and others prefer a nice beach… here comes to question, do you wanna burn for pain or just a getting darker skin… I like to burn, not in a hell 
Well, for me it’s the opposite of “hell”. 
I’ll try it differently: Let’s take another game as an example, e.g. Basketball. There are also big “heavys” there. However, due to their structure, these are slower and inaccurate. However, close to the basket they are “deadly”. It goes even further: A 3 second rule has been introduced in the paint in order to nerf them, otherwise they would gather around the basket and play volleyball. Why did they do it? To supplement the heavys? No, to make other types of players comparatively more attractive and thus make the whole game better.
I’m just saying there must be some penaltys, a tradeoff for more armor and more deadly weapons.
I agree that there should be penalties, it’s why I like the idea of having to plant yourself in a spot as a Heavy. The biggest flaw with a weapon emplacement is that it can’t move. This is why it’s heavily armoured, it’s easy to hit.
So a Heavy, who wants to be able to hit, can’t move, but has heavy armour to compensate. This would be an ideal scenario for me. It’s balanced.