What I think the biggest mistakes in this game a.k.a feedback on general mechanics

First of, I know that this is just pre-alpha yet and a lot can change, that’s exactly the reason I’m writing here. Lets see a few points:

-the biggest letdown in xcom, i mean the firaxis kind of xcom, is the progression. there are 2 kind of players, one plays for killing aliens, winning fights, completing tasks, the other plays for the progression. when you get to the top, its done, the game stops to be interesting (yeah, xcom games became boring rather quickly, after 10 battles i usually had all the important tech and a squad that can take on any mission).

i dont know much of pp progression yet but one thing is inevitable, due to the classes there will be a limited range of progression a toon can take. there will be no adapting to new enemies and new situations (sadly in this i see there will be no really new situations, slow adaption and light changes arent what im talking about). you will get a class, you will have probably a class fixed tree like in xcom and you get penalised for using anything else. imo this is a mistake.
there was an other game, ufo afterlight that solved this a lot better. there were only skills you can improve and those skills made a toon to have a class, i still had snipers, heavies and assaults, they just didnt have that marked anywhere. i knew what they are and the penalty for using other types of weapons came form the lack of skills. sadly the skills didnt come from doing things but were freely distributable but it was a lot more interesting and when through the game ive met different enemies i was able to adapt and train my heavies as close combat martial artists, my snipers as scouts etc because, yeah, in ufo al there were very very distinctive enemies (especially when martians came into the game or attacking the mindcontrolling base, first needed close combatant the second needed a full robot army).

Give freedom to the player and let us decide what weapons we want to give to a soldier and how we want to use them. And I don’t try to say by any chance to stop copying xcom and start copying ufo al, that game wasnt perfect either, doing your own version that is better than both of these would be the right choice;

how then? change the skills by the use of weapons and trainings. have training facilities to train strength, aiming, fitness etc, give minuscule skill for every day spent on training, it wouldnt make a soldier a superhero but would give a definite advantage over the course of the game. then have combat experience you get for using weapons and techs in battles and you could bring in things like painresistance for those get lots of injury but always survive :smiley: just an idea, he could die slower for bleeding. and finally have schools where the soldiers can get different level of training that would give a distinct advantage in one weaponclass but would make them unavailable for a long time. This could be an interesting system and not even that difficult to make it up.

-destructible cover: this is one horrible invention xcom had and as i see you intend to follow them. when a single shot can destroy buildings/wall/military metal crate etc or the queen that can walk through literally anything. c’mon, human buildings are made to withstand natural catastrophes. there is nothing more to say about this. there should be strict levels of what can destroy what. like no sniper gun should destroy a concrete wall or a metal crate, it’s shell might passes through but thats it. walls shouldnt be brought down even by grenades, maybe c4 that should be available with training to open up walls and attack the back of the enemies but simply levelling the map is silly. Even the boss’s terrain destructionmodel is an xcom copy, straight from the sectopod…

-aiming mechanisms: the points you should look for:
1: accuracy of the weapons. while its static for any given weapon and really can be a cone like in your game, its not enough to model aiming
2: movement. sure in a turn based game the enemy is always standing in front of you but really they are moving/running when not in cover or shooting
3: accuracy of the soldier. aiming with a weapon is not as simple as pointing at the enemy and let a bullet go and let the random spreading of a gun decide weather it hits or not. every weapon makes it easier or harder to aim for the user at different distances.
like a pistol can have the same or better accuracy then an assault riffle on the same distance, still aiming with a pistol at 200 meters is mastermarksmenship while with an assault riffle anybody can do it. in the meantime aiming with a high magnification sniper riffle at an enemy in front of you is nearly impossible especially if the target is on the move.
4: stabilisation. aiming VERY heavily should depend on what position you take. crouching and proning should be accounted for and so should be manual, not some automatic crap that tells you what you HAVE TO do.
5: snapshot/aimed shot/burst fire/autoshot. they are there and could add to the game, the more options are the better, especially if you dont have to work much to implement them. they should just be different shots with different accuracy patterns and different tu cost again to just give the player more options.

As I see there are very few games accounting for these and pp is not one of them

also, as i see recoil is nonexistent in the game that could bring with a tiny easy change a lot extra gameplay like inventing things that helps with recoil, training your heavies strength to deal with recoil or taking longer time (using more TU for a repeat shot) for weaker units to deal with it… shooting could be interesting in an rpg too not only in an fps game…

imo accuracy should be heavily penalised as long as you are not right in the face of your enemy or have extreme tech level. no, dont give me chances, lover or higher, doesnt matter, give me accuracy or penalise accuracy based on actions, positions, weapons etc. we are not in a duckshooting range, we are fighting moving living enemies. pointshooting them for hp blocks… well, please, leave that for jake…

-movement: yeah, why on earth are you copying xcom? to make it boring already when pp gets released? do you want people to boot it up and feel like they have already played it to death? not a good start. do you know why games are being forgotten? because people gets familiar with them. when they already start familiar they will get bored even quicker, though now that you changed from the original idea of shooting will end your turn its still not perfect, it gives way too few actions, probably because of the small maps its necessary but you wouldnt have to have all these overcomplicated xcom maps. trying to fit more into less space is not necessarily good.

-hud: there are way too much information and way too few options. I dont want to see how many hp-s can i take or if i will disable of make him bleed, these should come from no chance but proper hitboxes with vital parts. I get that casual players might want this info but please remove them at least on higher difficulties. no circles, no damage previews, no hp bars. there should only be wounded/disabled/bleeding or dead

-and here it comes, HP/damage model, as noted above this having a number of hp-s and a far lower amount of damage potential only shows one thing… you have no idea how to make a combat interesting and first of all lasting. instead of variations you make one enemy to count 2-3 times or even 20 times. again, its probably the outcome or stuffed small maps where there are no real distances to have 30 enemies spread out, you have to make 5 enemies to last 30 shots. instead there should be a hitbox model, hit something wound something, if its vital part kill it, if not disable or wound it.

-armor: again just xcom copy. why? do you guys not have your own ideas? no, armor never worked like taking up some of the damage. it either saves you or not. if it bounces a bullet you are good if not you are fkd. and for this reason there should be the ap and he shells and maybe the hp shells for extended wound or limb damage but worse penetration. also the heavier/bulkier the armor it should penalise aiming or simply make it impossible to use some weapons with it (instead give special weaponry like heavy pistol heavy machine gun heavy sniper that can only be used by strong toons or in assisted armors)

-overwatch: such a far-fetched idea… willpower does not give you extra time, saved up tu-s do and thats not something you switch on or off, having just reactionshots for nothing… ohh c’mon. i dont like to talk about realistic things in fantasy games but here LOGIC is being defied. reactionshots should depend on spotting and available tu-s. someone leaves the cover and you have tu, decide if the toon has enough agility to take a shot on him and if yes take the shot…, tu-s over? thats it, no more shooting. you are slower than the enemy, you are fkd

-will: instead of giving you magic time, will should serve once the panic effect and also should contribute to aiming. its difficult to shoot with shaking hands but again, you shouldnt just copy xcom. panic is not all about hunkering down and losing the turn. it should come in rushing out taking random shots, like a maniac, or refusing to move when you want to send it out to an other position, fear from a specific enemy etc. for now, and this is the problem with xcom too, its way too calculable. its like playing math instead of an alienshooter.

-heavens: an other copy paste element… aliens raid a heaven go to save them. i hope it will all be on fire and helpless hobos will be running around as free target to the enemy… seriously. heavens are heavens for a reason and they can still be there in the wasteland because they are protected, hard to find and take on… instead of such silly xcom copy you could use them many different ways
1: help their raids, do joint missions in their areas, make them stronger and more advanced with it
1.5: build fortresses and man with your own soldiers to defend them in case of an attack
2: trade with them
3: hire soldiers from their ranks
3.5: convince them to side you
4: store soldiers and/or items/vehicles there
5: make them do works for you. manufacturing/building/researching
6: of course saving them can still be an option but shouldnt be built on it like xcom did

-base building, please do it right and make the built bases available as maps for home defense battles aka properly modeled rooms and hangers that looks on the tactical map just like on the base view. please. you build so many maps, this isnt difficult.

Thats it for now. Sadly Im aware that most if not all of this will be ignored, i wasted my time on it with good will…

2 Likes

Nice and long post. And I must say I agree with at least few points.

I think the developers have already stated in interviews that progression will be more in depth than the newer xcom games, and skills will be less dependent on class, so I think that part should make you happy. As far as weapons - I believe you can use any weapon with any class already. haven’t tried it out fully, but I have found weapons in chests that you can drag onto the “swap wheel” or whatever it is officially called.

Destructible cover is an xcom classic feature (from the original game). I agree it maybe shouldn’t mean destroying a regulat wall with a regular rifle, but with explosives and heavy weapons and whatnot it can open up new strategies (e.g. breaching a wall to make entry somewhere other than the front door, which is done in real life combat situations).

Not sure about your point on movement - it might looks like xcom visually (which is a good thing, IMO), but it is different in all the right ways. They basically brought back action points under the hood, so it is possible to move and then fire, fire and then move, move then fire then move again, fire multiple times (weapon dependent I am guessing based on AP consumed), etc. I played for 15 minutes this morning, but was able to test this out, e.g. my heavy moved, opened a crate, equipped a grenade from the crate, and fragged a baddie in the same term. My sniper could move and shoot. My assault trooper was able to shoot twice and go on overwatch, etc.

In terms of your overwatch and willpower comments: I think this is partly in just how you are viewing the willpower mechanic. Willpower in this game seems to represent the soldiers ability to push through discomfort and move/operate faster. Don’t view it as added/magic “time”, view it as the soldier pushing themselves to do more in the same period of time. I believe there is some sort of exertion mechanic (either implemented or planned) already…

Based on developer interviews/presentations, havens generally act in some of the ways you are describing. There are different factions that you do missions for, and you build up reputation for various benefits and can recruit their soldiers. As far as haven defense missions - well yeah, the aliens are going to attack havens and they will need to be defended. Not sure why that is “copying” xcom, or a bad thing. Why wouldn’t the baddies be assaulting the last few remaining human strongholds almost constantly, trying to wipe them out?

Based on what we have already heard from developers, base building is supposed to be a thing, including defending your bases as static maps based on the layout you select.

Overall, I think most of your feedback is based on assumptions, not the game’s current state or roadmap. I recommend that you take a look at some of the recorded presentations/interviews and read some of the material out there on the game - I think you will be presently surprised on how much of your wishlist is actually planned to be addressed.

4 Likes

yes, they said you can use other than class specific weapons but again, their use will depend more on class and less on skills, they stated that non-class specific weapons will be magically penalised. if weapon use would depend solely on skills, it would still penalise non-class weapons but would be adaptable with just improving the related skills. ergo in an optimal situation a soldier with high strength and armor should be able to dodge enemy attacks get close and rain them hell with a machine gun that would never hit from a distance but would be horrible with a sniper riffle. still can use it but poorly. this is the class system and its fine. BUT if a new kind of enemy comes, like a new mutation what if you would need kind of a heavy sniper? like to have heavy armor carry a heavy sniper riffle to take out support soldiers from the back of the still alive armored enemies? just to bring a random scenario.

as mentioned above, rigid classes, even if they arent completely strict, will never give the amount of options a player can create in freedom. if they want to make a game that just look fancy and sells well, fine, this xcom type is the right choice… if they want to make a replayable game… thats a different story.

as per destruction, yes, thats why i mentioned c4. even explosives could have their own techtree to bring down bigger stronger walls , locked doors etc but a grenade is not for that. its a very weak explosive. and with heavy weapons sure, it can destroy weak thin walls or doors but no amount of shooting would take down a sandbag fortification or a concrete blockhouse wall. for that there are the specialised explosives

with movement the problem is that small actions dont cost actionpoints while bigger actions cost too much. i think it comes from the amount of ap-s or tu-s. like one step takes 1 tu, you have 15 tu-s so 15 moves, but there is no to for like facing (actually facing is not at all implemented sadly, an other downside) or crouching (which is even worse, automatic) because they would take much more tu than taking a step. it should be like you have 100-150 tu, 1 step is like 8 tu-s and an 1/4 turning is 1 tu or crouching 2 tu-s etc. instead its just a simple copy of xcom except they allow to use all the tu-s while xcom thrown away your tu-s if you did anything.

i could accept your thinking of overwatch if it would depend on their will but it depends on when you turn it on/off. they totally built on xcom and just done some minor tweaking instead of thinking logically. you see, crouching that should give a tactical advantage and should be your decision when to use it is actually automatic, while the thing that would depend on the soldiers will and not you actually depends on you. and its not like you have high will so you can push yourself, its a money that you can trade for actions and it goes down if you use it while it should go up or down based solely on the situation.

as per heavens, you do missions for the factions not for the heavens, you just get a message, do a mission, kinda like in xcom again with the xcom factions. if you do the mission they will like you if you dont do the mission they wont like you… thats it. instead of getting to heavens, talk to them, look into things what they know about their surroundings, ask if they plan any scavenging etc and go with them, there is a huge difference in small details, the outcome is he same, you get a mission you do it they will like you. the question is how the mission is sold for you…

about base defense yeah, on static maps based on layout… this is what i was talking about. how much would it take to have dynamic maps based on what did you build there?

I disagree with basically everything in the OP.

Especially the bellyaching about classes. Chess has classes - does that detract from its tactical depth?

1 Like

And I think this is your biggest issue here. You complain about something that isn’t finished and already was mentioned to be changed in final game.

Classes? You can select multiple classes with one soldier. You want him to be heavy/sniper/technical/assault. Just select that instead of pumping up only heavy class. There won’t be max level cap so your soldiers can have all what you need them to have.

Destruction? Said multiple times it is about to change. It is silly for simple rifle to destroy a wall, but stronger weapons like plasma and explosive can do that. Maybe they will introduce separate(hidden) stat of environment damage for each weapon. But definitely hardness of all objects will change. They even have a special guy for environment which is making modifications to it.

Movement? It is TU based. Maybe not too precise to calculate all different actions, but still we haven’t seen all possible actions and they definitely were balancing AP cost which was not the backers build thing.

Armour? Don’t you want too much in this game, calculating ricochets, bounces etc? Maybe current system isn’t perfect and super logical but it is good enough for me.

Willpower? Was explained by someone else

Havens and base build? Also explained and announced to work differently than most probably expected.

EDIT: About that armour part. Because you have an issue that damage is reduced by it and you think about it as if “damage was done when bullet penetrated armour but with lower impact”. Threat it like that: If at least one point of damage was negated then armour blocked that bulled but still hit was so hard that user of armour got blunt damage.

With other “issues” I may agree, but still I don’t know developers build and what is planned. So my worries and wishful thinking may have been already addressed.

What is “OP”?

Original post (can mean original poster on occasion but i don’t think he would so totally disapprove of dear Vargata).

As for the rest, bear in mind that he was replying to a post written on the first of May.

I think the OP has some interesting ideas and points but his class vs skills issues remind me of flame wars over pen and paper rpgs about which mechanic is better. Obviously the class system can be implemented well and it can be implemented badly, that is really still to come (esepcially when one considers progression), but a skill based system can also be implemented well and it can be implemented badly. So we’ll really have to wait and see how this area pans out and not prejudge features we don’t have yet.

2 Likes

my only point there is that classes will always be more restricted and pose magical stat differences (like penalties) while a skill based system still gives you classes but without the restrictions and magical penalties… its not about which system is better or worse, its about freedom vs restrictions…

For me, it’s not about “freedom vs restrictions” but about “fun”.

I know it’s not the important point for games (why would it), but I still play for having fun, and classes or their absence has less impact on my fun than balance. And the more restrictions the easier it is to balance (because there are less combination, it’s easier to think through most of them).

And if the developers think they can make a fun class-based system (it sounds less restrictive than FiraXCOM for example, so it’s not that restrictive), I’m willing to trust them on this, as I backed the project because I think they can make a fun game.

2 Likes

In your entire argument, you are basically saying:

Freedom = better
Restrictions = worse

Therefore you are arguing that a skill system is better than a class one and are rehashing the old RPG arguments people had over D&D from decades ago, only this time, it’s over Phoenix Point. My point is that it doesn’t actually matter; a skill system can be implemented badly just like a class system can. For example in the original Dungeon Siege your character got better for the things they did, but there was a certain point when you couldn’t effectively ‘change your mind’ any more because to, say, switch from using Nature magic to bows was such a drop in power with a character who had only used Nature magic that you couldn’t actually kill anything with the bow so it was pointless to diversify. The game assumed you would choose a path and stick to it and its difficulty was geared to that assumption. That’s just one quick example for you. Now I’m sure the devs of Phoenix Point would not do that here but I bring it up to show you that any mechanics can be implemented badly, no matter what they are.

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It seems “Progression” is strictly tied to “Soldier Progression” for some people, there is also “Tech” progression and “Base” development progression and probably other things we might’ve not seen yet.
Not to mention this game ends when you win the war, not when the skill tree ends.

I for one, am not here to play “Sims” with my soldiers and put them into training facilities.
Which was a terrible idea in XCOM2 to begin with, XCOM like games with a “Classless” system always leveled up the stats through the actions you take on the mission not in some training facilities.

Like i said in a previous post about “Class System” vs “Non-Class System”.
“Freedom” of choice doesn’t necessarily means a better experience.
Like you mentioned already, this is Pre-Alpha and you haven’t seen what is being cooked, yet already you want them to stray away from what they have planned.
Have some patience and let the developers do their jobs.

Which XCOM invent destructible environment? Firaxis XCOM?
Destructible environment was already introduced in XCOM: UFO Defense, which was made by Julian Gollop who is working on this game.
Why are you even trying look for realism in a Sci-fi video game about alien invasion?
If you look for realism in one aspect of the game you might as well argue that other aspects of the game make no sense.
You want to argue “Realism”?
You have no knowledge of how long the structures that are being destroyed have stood there without maintenance or the way they were built. Were they made to withstand earthquakes, fire, flooding or something else.
This is the silliest complaint ever.
Also it has been mentioned that the environmental destruction isn’t complete, like the fact that the alien boss just runs through structures without repercussions.

I didn’t quite get what were your points about “Aiming Mechanics”, but i notice you keep coming back to “Training Strength” or other soldiers statistics.
“Recoil” was never a thing in XCOM like games, and in my opinion it shouldn’t be, this isn’t a military simulation game like ARMA.
This game, like any other XCOM like games is about risk management. Make the best out of the worst possible situation and still you might get rekt.
The “Rogue” element of not succeeding at your action because of “RNG” was the element that made the game exciting, to play and watch others play.
Another feature that isn’t implemented yet is the “Fog” that will affect visibility range and probably accuracy.

Firaxis XCOM EU\EW was boring and forgettable not because of its movement scheme, but because it had the same maps with no procedural generation and pod activation on the same spot all the time.
Long War fixed it by having random starting zones and random spawn points for the pods.
I’ve played XCOM EU\EW Vanilla for 30 minutes, while i played Long War for over 3000 hours.
While i’m a fan of the original UFO Defense, with classless system with TUs, having 2 action points didn’t hold me back from enjoying the game and playing it for many hours.

You don’t want to see information, some will probably want to see it and plan their turns accordingly. This really boils down to personal preference, and throwing it as if it was for “Casual” players makes you look like a bloated prick.
I actually tried playing XCOM EW Long War with with no display for the damage calculation when soldiers tooktheir shots.
Which means you take a shot, it doesn’t show you how much damage it did and you can’t see how many hit points it got left. It is actually tedious, since this is a “Strategy” game where you are suppose to plan your moves\turns, and train your memory.

What “small stuffed maps”? You only have this 1 map that is a demo and a test for map generation and ironing out combat bugs.
There is a “Hitbox” model, you hit, it loses HP. You want them to completely scratch the whole idea behind HP with Armor, and make it “1 or 0” hit or miss, hit vital = kill, hit limbs = disable, or wound.
I don’t know if you noticed, but when you actually hit the limbs you can destroy them like the grenade launcher that the Crabman uses. Your soldier could get wounded and is unable to use a gun.

Again, you don’t know what things are coming our way in this game and “Copying” other games isn’t a bad thing.
There is no need to reinvent the wheel, use it, improve on it, and innovate.
We haven’t seen what other units we will have, or what other weapon types we will have.

So the shooting mechanics are completely fine, hp and armor mechanics are completely fine.
Same goes for “Overwatch” and “Willpower”…

Actually nobody liked a panicking soldier that ran into random locations and sometimes shot friendlies.
It was even taken out by Long War mod out of Firaxis XCOM EU\EW.

You look for “Real” “Logic” in a video game, let it be a video game for once and try to have fun rather than looking for a “Simulation” in it.

Again, this game is being made by Jullian Gollop, the person that made XCOM: UFO Defense where base building represented the map layout you will get in your base defense missions.
Why are you even mentioning this?

-Here i will copy paste what i said about a thread for a “Petition: classless system”.

"Lets let the developers do their jobs before even telling them not to do something they already planned for and have a road map for.
Since we don’t have much of a game yet, changing something crucial to the strategic game play like having no classes might undermine big parts of the games design that we have no proper insight into.
I’ve seen quite a few games being ruined by the community pulling the strings in the wrong direction…
Well, that is just my opinion.

Complete freedom isn’t always a good thing, playing a game that restricts you in your options gives it the feel of solving a puzzle with a handful of choices where you have to make the right ones.
With classes, it resembles somewhat of a chess game. Only here there is much more to lose, the soldier, the mission, the campaign.
Classes are linear no doubt, but when you have a nice choice of classes and whom you bring to the mission it shapes the strategic approach that you as a player choose. With enough classes it will be your unique way of playing the game.

For the problem of “irreplaceable soldiers”, the player should be given tools to bolster his ranks when the veterans die, not necessarily making everyone being able to do the same job just less efficiently.
Again, these are only my thought on the matter.

I found Firaxis Xcom EU\EW dull and boring and it had no place in my heart until Long War was a thing.
The game itself was very linear on the strategic layout because of the fixed spawn points with the lack of random map generation.
Firaxis Xcom2 has random spawn points and generated maps, but has too much linear story yapping.
The game doesn’t feel like an “Alien Invasion Sandbox” (not that it has to, that is just what i prefer), it is a streamlined pipe that leads you on your endeavour to save the world. Between the Avatar Project, and the constant missions with more or less the same objectives with a timer to force you into tough situations.
Take out the timer, and the game isn’t that challenging.
The game itself had too much stuff you can fiddle around with, all i wanted is raw action of murdering aliens against all odds, improving your tech and pushing forward.

Point being, i am more worried about the linear feel of the game itself and the invasion scale than it being linear because of a class system.
Even though the best Xcom games (in my opinion) don’t have a class system:
1.UFO: Enemy Unknown
2.Xenonauts

I trust SnapShot will deliver a bad ass product, in my opinion it is too soon to try and derail some of their development choices.
Like it was said previously, with mod support something can be fiddled with or changed to your liking."

“It seems “Progression” is strictly tied to “Soldier Progression” for some people” just because we only talk about that it doesnt mean we think thats the only one… you try to twist things

“Not to mention this game ends when you win the war, not when the skill tree ends.” yes, it ends when you win the war, but it gets boring when you have nowhere else to progress… it will just be repetitive battles again and again like in long war

“Like i said in a previous post about “Class System” vs “Non-Class System”.
“Freedom” of choice doesn’t necessarily means a better experience.” Yeah, i guess there are people like their hands to be held and to be forced between artificial restrictions.
“Have some patience and let the developers do their jobs.” this forum is exactly here to express opinion about what we have already seen. you know, this is the sole purpose of it. not bootlicking :smiley:
“Why are you even trying look for realism in a Sci-fi video game about alien invasion?” can you even read? im looking for LOGIC, not realism, ive explained it “ohh c’mon. i dont like to talk about realistic things in fantasy games but here LOGIC is being defied”. do you get the difference between these things?

“Also it has been mentioned that the environmental destruction isn’t complete” and you know that in fxcom this, what we have seen in pp was actually the final finished version? if we dont say no to it, it can very much be the final version in pp too. thats why this forum exists, we tell what we dont like and they will decide if they change or not… i can hardly imagine they need some self-proclaimed solicitors to save their day

“Which XCOM invent destructible environment? Firaxis XCOM?
Destructible environment was already introduced in XCOM: UFO Defense, which was made by Julian Gollop who is working on this game.” nope, they had some very minor environment destruction, again, here we were discussing the overdone one in fxcom

““Recoil” was never a thing in XCOM like games, and in my opinion it shouldn’t be” very well, we take thats your opinion. thanks. thats it, my opinion is that its very simple to implement and would make the use of automatic weapons more interesting as it woulod be a stat that would give strong and trained solders a LOGICAL advantage with those things instead of, again, magical stats. if you oversimplify a system, you get the crap fails of fxcom like the nonstop 95% misses.

“The “Rogue” element of not succeeding at your action because of “RNG” was the element that made the game exciting,” only if that rng is only affecting the outcome together with the characterbuilds and not taking over regardless of everything else. this mistake can be seen in fxcom where a guy with a pistol has the same chance to snipe a far away alien than a sniper with a scoped rifle. you need to restrict rng. of course there are always people who wouldnt even notice a 50-50 simplification but i dont think the devs should make games for them as while they will ceatainly make these “simple” players happy, they will put down everybody else…

“Firaxis XCOM EU\EW was boring and forgettable not because of its movement scheme, but because it had the same maps with no procedural generation and pod activation on the same spot all the time.
Long War fixed it by having random starting zones and random spawn points for the pods.
I’ve played XCOM EU\EW Vanilla for 30 minutes, while i played Long War for over 3000 hours.” nope, long war didnt fix anything, it was the same boring as the main game, if not even more boring. its just you and some fans, fxcom was boring on many many accounts and the second game is just the same boring with its procedural map generation…

“You don’t want to see information, some will probably want to see it and plan their turns accordingly. This really boils down to personal preference, and throwing it as if it was for “Casual” players makes you look like a bloated prick.” or it makes YOU look like a silly person calling someone a prick who asks for OPTIONS only. you know, those stats can be disabled and enabled. of course, this would need LOGIC (not realism)

“I actually tried playing XCOM EW Long War with with no display for the damage calculation when soldiers tooktheir shots.
Which means you take a shot, it doesn’t show you how much damage it did and you can’t see how many hit points it got left. It is actually tedious” again, nope, it comes down to the poorly made damage model. in a logical game you dont need stat screens because the environment will tell you if you will likely hit or not and if it can kill or not.

“While i’m a fan of the original UFO Defense, with classless system with TUs, having 2 action points didn’t hold me back from enjoying the game and playing it for many hours.” while it held back others. why do you think you are worth more than others?

“Again, you don’t know what things are coming our way in this game and “Copying” other games isn’t a bad thing.
There is no need to reinvent the wheel, use it, improve on it, and innovate.” maybe for you this is true, there are people who can play 3000 hours with a boring game. for others, new things might be important. Im not sure though that JG wants to sell his game to a portion only when he could make it better for the enjoyment of a lot instead

“You look for “Real” “Logic” in a video game, let it be a video game for once and try to have fun rather than looking for a “Simulation” in it.” again you just show you dont even get the difference between logic and realism. a very unrealistic game can still be logical…

“Complete freedom isn’t always a good thing, playing a game that restricts you in your options gives it the feel of solving a puzzle with a handful of choices where you have to make the right ones.” yeah, play tetris if you like to

“all i wanted is raw action of murdering aliens against all odds” yes, you are the player i was talking about, “there are 2 kind of players, one plays for killing aliens, winning fights, completing tasks, the other plays for the progression”, sry but i have to disappoint you, the world does not need to be shaped to just your liking, the problem is, and the point of my entire post:
-more options will satisfy more players, they will not restrict you to just go and kill aliens
-strict rules on the other hand will only satisfy your kind of players and will restrict everyone else as did fxcom and does this demo
no matter how you come and try to suppress the opinions that are saying the game does not look good in its CURRENT state (we don’t talk about the final product, as you said we don’t yet know how it will look) but we still have the right to point out for the devs what we like and what we don’t…

“I trust SnapShot will deliver a bad ass product,” this is the problem of believers. i only trust finished products

This is not necessarily true. If game becomes too complex it can become boring, when you have to take care of 100 different aspects and you don’t progress in campaign at all. :wink: Clear rules and limitations can make game more enjoyable. FiraXCOM did too much in this matter, but game after some modifications was still fun to play. :wink:

yet, you are disappointed with small fracture of not finished product and threat all its components like they are not about to change. :slight_smile: At least it sounds like that in your original post. :wink: Maybe it was Snapshot Games fault that they didn’t clearly put statement “everything you see here is not final” anywhere. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

EDIT: Problem is that you saw small part of the game and took it as really simple and plain. But developers announced so many different mechanics and aspects that PP will definitely won’t be boring even with what we saw in Backers Build #1.

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“This is not necessarily true. If game becomes too complex it can become boring” omfg :smiley: yeah, everything can be done wrong but complex wont be boring, complicated can, and those 2 things are very different
“yet, you are disappointed with small fracture of not finished product” yeah, we can only tell our opinion about things we have already seen, unlike you who is full of pointless assumptions like “PP will definitely won’t be boring”. now this is what you DONT know yet and based on what they have shown for now, the opposite is pretty possible

So backing this project one year ago was pointless. Because then it was full of crap (they just showed some silly pictures). :stuck_out_tongue: Yeah sure Mr obvious. :wink:

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Which isn’t actually that unrealistic. If you’ve been training to “git gud” at something for all your life and decide to radically change career at some point, expect to suck at first. The difference in real life or open games is that you would probably tackle smaller challenges with your new skills until you can back to a reasonable level of proficiency, which isn’t exactly possible in a game.

I liked the old shadowrun skill system where you could default to skills from a same group if you were missing one. Let’s say you have a decent car driving skill but have to drive a truck without ever having trained for it, you can use your car skill with a penalty, or even the raw associated attribute with an even bigger penalty. Older versions of Shadowrun had even more interesting skill trees but that went away at some point.

There’s a matter of taste involved here. Character training in XCOM 2 was mostly limited to picking the initial specialization of your character, which was just another way to implement “Commander’s choice” and avoid being screwed if you can’t get new grenadiers because RNG said so.

this level of micromanagement is fine by me, and is actually minimal compared to LW1, that has gene mods, psionic training and limb chopping for MECs, not to mention officer development. I actually love it :slight_smile:

Recoil is simulated well enough by having single shots more accurate than burst/full auto. I agree we don’t need a “first bullet+spread” mechanic. I wouldn’t advise discussing RNG with the OP has it’s been done in other topics and proved fruitless.

Done the “hidden health bars” in XCOM 2 and, while it had merit on a first blind playthrough for the scare factor, it’s not desirable to go fully blind. We can agree that total absence of information is not desirable, but I’d advocate imperfect information that allows you to see the general condition of the enemy without having exact HP displayed, as I feel calculating the exact amount of dmg is too gamey. It leads to “this guy has only two hp left, a pistol is a secure kill, let’s save ammo” or worse if you factor in the current state of the alpha where bleeds are a common occurence. I find imperfect info gives you enough data to build a puzzle to solve without breaking immersion with gamey calculations.

Out of curiosity, how do you rationalize UFO above Xenonauts? UFO has the honor of being the first of the genre, and a childhood favorite of mine, but with Xenonauts being such a close remake, with actual improvements and very little taken away from the original franchise, I simply find it to be the better product once I take off the rose tinted glasses (which is normal for a game released almost 20 years later, don’t get me wrong).

I’ll restrain myself from wasting time on you by going back and forth on this argument, you are pretty obnoxious.
You stated your “feedback” i stated my opinion on your “feedback”, the developer will decide what goes in and how. Deal with it.
For some reason you think i’m here to push my ideas to the front as if they matter more, i’m just telling you to chill and let it go for a moment until we get the alpha at least.
Baseless complaints on a pre-alpha product with close to no knowledge about the missing features and the road map of this game.
Watch some interviews\QA’s, read some blog entries next time before you go rampant with your “feedback” complaints.
There is no need to alienate the other half (maybe a third or maybe a quarter who knows) of the player base because for some reason you feel yourself superior to them and you know what’s best.
Since you know so much about what the players desire, you should definitely enlist into Snapshot Games. There are plenty opened positions it seems.

If you trust only finished products then comeback when it’s finished and then decide if you’re going to buy it or not, but if you already pre-ordered it then you kind of contradict yourself here.

Nevertheless i wish you all the best, have a nice day.

There will come a point where you have to push to win the campaign or risk losing. It won’t be a sandbox where you can keep grinding missions forever.

We’ve already said that the destruction isn’t final. This is pre-alpha, nothing is final.

Completely false. The environments in UFO Defense were fully destructible. You could level the entire map, even terrain tiles.

We’ve actually had internal design discussions about a system where you can’t see how much health a new enemy type has until you’ve either killed X number of them, researched them, or used some type of tech/scanner to identify them. The plan (if implemented) was to use visual and audio cues to give the player an idea of how badly injured they were.

XCOM/XCOM2 didn’t hold anyone back. It’s not a bad game, it’s just different. Some people like it, some people don’t. It’s completely subjective.

Phoenix Point borrows both from the original X-Com UFO, X-Com Apoc and from the new Firaxis remakes. It also adds new features, mechanics and gameplay ideas not seen in any of them. Plus (we like to think so) a really good and rich story/world.

All games, virtual and physical, have rules and restrictions. It’s what makes them different from one another.

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Your views on the possibility of modders achieving sandbox?
I would even like to try a setting where the Virus is so weak the factions are fighting each other more for “world dominance” (conquer X % of havens, eliminate and/or ally all the other factions, etc.), which is not the goal of the game, but do you think the required “stuff” will/could be exposed for modding?

Another question, your views on having “skirmish missions” (something like what the BB has right now) available after launch? I know that Battletech is a different enough game, but I like the ability of just playing a “fast” battle instead of fiddling around with my campaign when I don’t have “enough” time.
That, and trying out “impossible” combinations and/or “personal” challenges, like highest-tier tech from every faction or going with just a few soldiers instead, which I may not risk in campaign “just for fun”.

To me this sounds like the scanner/research/etc. for showing enemy stats idea was rejected, or is it still discussed?