Separation of each Class into Strengths and Weaknesses.
Features for New and Progress = step size and max range.
Multiclass changes +/- in Progress.
Statistics on Legend:
Corrected
Concept, under modifications
I take the Priest class (typical Mage) as the Basis of balance:
Priest - max limit of Will Progress (+5 start/ +4 max), but min for Strength (2x step / -6 max)
– (New) Strength 14/20, Will 11/18, Speed 14/18
Heavy - max limit Strength Progress (+4 start/ +5 max), but ~min Speed (2x step/ -2 max)/ Stealth(-4 start/ -4 max)
– (New) Strength 18/31, Will , Speed 14/16, Stealth -4 start/ -4 max
Sniper - max limit of Accuracy Progress, but min
Assault - max Speed Progress limit, but min
Inf - max limit of Stealth Progress, but min
Bers - ~max Progress limit Will / Speed, but min Accuracy
Tech - max Progress limit , but min Perception
More precisely, it will partially correct strengths and weaknesses.
Priest / Heavy - a new Multiclass that has not “touched” Strength (in a perfect example), will partially increase Progress (decrease Step, +Max) for Strength, unlike the solo-Priest, but will also receive a partial debuffs from the solo-Heavy.
I have read it several times and I’m still not sure if I understand it correctly.
I would try to represent it differently with Stat - Start ... Max (comment)
Like so:
Priest:
Strength - 14 … 20 (-10 max)
Will - 11 … 20 (+5 start)
Speed - 14 … 20 (no changes)
Heavy (just some numbers from me):
Strength - 18 … 30 (+4 start)
Will - 6 … 18 (-2 max)
Speed - 14 … 18 (-2 max)
…
Is that roughly how do you think it should be?
What is with dual class?
I don’t quite understand that yet …
What counts when I dual class a Priest with a Heavy? Then he can go up to 30 strength and the reduced max then becomes invalid? WP and speed then caps at 18 or 20?
When I dual class a Heavy with a Priest then he immediately gets 11 WP when I don’t increase it before (for instance when trained by TC)?
Should dual classing mostly counter many of these Weaknesses or not?
And Stealth, Accuracy and Perception are currently not rely on personal stats, how do you want to change that?
Although this gentle way (without taking Stealth, Accuracy and Perception) is fine for implementation right now. Then it will be possible to add the option - Different people, with the RNG attribute pool.
To be honest, I like the idea of recruits not having same initial attributes. But I feel something wrong here. Such restrictions for development of classes are more classic RPG thing rather than tactics. If there are weakness and strengths, it should be up to player to decide what needs to be improved, like it is with perks and skills, which can be left locked if they are not needed. And suggested changes block or make it difficult to train soldier in classes which have opposite “primary” attributes.
More precisely, it will partially correct strengths and weaknesses.
Priest / Heavy - a new Multiclass that has not “touched” Strength (in a perfect example), will partially increase Progress (decrease Step, +Max) for Strength, unlike the solo-Priest, but will also receive a partial debuffs from the solo-Heavy.
And this makes some perks and skills locked within factions. Not the best idea in my opinion. So far players don’t have much choice in recruiting from havens. As I said before, it is not a RPG where you have hub for creating a party. There can be each faction’s unique perk, but it should give quite insignificant bonus which would fit faction theme and not be more preferable than others.
What if I will want to give my Berserker (let’s suppose this class has strong Will) priest’s mind control abilities? Then in addition Berserker will get not only bonus to already good stat, but penalty to another one which also could be useful. Thus, it will become not good at close range due to reduced Strength and at long range as well due to Accuracy. This is just an example that such restriction can make some combinations not preferable compared to others, and it is not related only to mentioned classes.
There is another issue, which I’d like to remind. You can’t choose or change soldier’s initial class, and sometimes can be unlucky in searching heavies or snipers, or another unlocked class you need for. Or maybe you want to have a team with one common class. This is where your idea contradicts the existing mechanics a bit. The game allows to mix weapons, armors, classes in different ways. Sometimes this results in overpowered builds. But it is not unusual for player to have a soldier with mutated head and laser weapon equipped in NJ armor.
While I’m not totally against your idea, I have a feeling that it belongs to another kind of games. In those games it is important to have characters balanced between different stats according to their class, race, background, origin etc. Character’s death there often should be avoided at all costs. Although soldiers in Phoenix Point are not faceless units from strategies who die in hundreds on the battlefield, and player can become attached to them, because some have better randomised stats which suit to their role, they are meant to be replaceable or interchangeable. Your suggestion is more about stricting class roles in the game. Will it make game more straightforward and difficult (or complicated)? Probably yes. Will it be more fun? At least not for me in its current interpretation.
Sometimes I think that the skills system could benefit from a rework, the third row personal perks being very poorly realized and prompting complaints re randomness.
Some players also don’t like the dissociation between classes and roles in the game, and I have heard many different suggestions on how to reshuffle skills to make assaults more assaults, snipers more snipers, heavies more heavies, etc.
Yet other players want to do away with classes altogether…
I don’t know what the solution is, but I think you are right that differences between RPGs and TBS have to be considered. At the same time, because PP playerbase is quite diverse, there are players coming from different backgrounds and with different expectations, so some balancing act will always have to be made.
However, character development in PP can’t be approached in an RPG manner when you can have 30+ operatives (including the casualties) per playthrough.
_ Reworking the class system | Voters | Phoenix Point
This is not my ticket on Canny (you need to copy the review there).
This is an example for possible / future development of the “stat rework” concept.
(I would take some ideas from the link above: Working with 3-branch skills as unique skills with a background. + The logic of changing class skills.)
Do not understand how “my changes” differ from the current ones?
just an example: Priest - max limit of Will Progress (+5 start/ +4 max), but min for Strength (2x step / -6 max)
– (New) Strength 14/20, Will 11/18, Speed 14/18
Bers - ~max Progress limit Will(+3 start) / Speed(+1 start/ +2 max), but min Accuracy(-35%)
(New) Strength 14/26, Will 9/14, Speed 15/20, Accuracy(-35%)
So far it looks like class B/P isn’t same as class P/B. It becomes complicated compared to the current mechanic. I can guess from your examples what stat and how will change, but for the average player it will be difficult to understand such system at first without tips.
You make me want to cheat your system. I can max Strength before choosing Priest class to save SP. I don’t know, will be excess stat reduced so some spent points will be wasted, but still it doesn’t make sense to make restrictions to growth which won’t work at the end.
And I’m not sure, that I will prefer to get less max points than lose.
Now if “skills” could be granted by equipment only, soldiers would differ in “stats”, classes would grant them the ability to equip (or use gear efficiently), that would be interesting! (Return fire for Assault Rifles, Dash for Assault Legs, etc.)
Sounds familiar?
For real, the soldier progression PP has right now makes casualties still a big penalty, the power between lv1 and max lvl (or at the minimum, dual-classed combo) is big enough that the average player will rather restart the fight than accept losing soldiers, even if knowing that will make the later fights harder.
The DDA was scrapped back in 1.6, so that’s no longer the case (completing many missions successfully does seem to accelerate Pandoran evolution, but whether operatives get injured or not is no longer relevant).
Does it really though? You can get higher level recruits with very good stats at havens, and (at least on Legend) they are very cheap. I had so many casualties already (2nd week OF February) that I have to scroll through my Memorial. And still I have 4 teams with very reasonable stats.
Personally, I don’t think replacing casualties is too much of an issue, and even if it is it would probably be addressed by increasing availability/reducing costs of higher level recruits.
I’m not saying that something like this doesn’t have its merits, but TBH just as every other proposal I have seen so far it’s high effort, high risk, low potential reward proposition, simply because the number of players who may prefer this system to the existing one will likely be small, rather than large: it will likely upset (or at least fail to please) those players who don’t like the magical nature of skills (because the skills would still be there, just grafted onto something else), and also those players who like skills as part of character progression. Just my opinion
This is not for Rookie and Veteran. Two most important tracks for PP
(Although, it may be possible in some kind of mild form. “Different people”, with RNG-pool of Class attributes.)
Within the boundaries of this system there is no way to be “smarter” than the Priest and faster than the Assault, only to approach them.
Instead, there will be: a) decreased / removed the bonus for Multiclass, b) increased the debuff of the Second class, c) = a + b
“Shot the bull’s-eye”. This is the Goal - “rebuilding stats”. Tactics are formed where there are restrictions within the rules. Unlike Mono-Tactics, just release more Power.
Concept, under modifications
I can max Strength before choosing Priest class to save SP. I don’t know, will be excess stat reduced so some spent points will be wasted, but still it doesn’t make sense to make restrictions to growth which won’t work at the end.
