Question about "Ready Slots" Design

[Lorifel]

I have no problem with the current system. Why have an option to multiclass if you have no quick access to several main weapons?
Besides there is nothing preventing anyone from using the slots as they see fit.
E.g.: one for rifle, one for pistol or sword, and one for medikit or equipment.

[noStas]

@karoten2

There is Inventory limitation by weight, which is determines directly by Strength,
this works good, there are no issues with it, and is no reason to set rules like -only 2 large objects/boxes in the backpack-, it would not improve the gameplay

With my concept, I wanted to solve the problems:

• a technician can take 6+ turrets on a mission, only himself. (1 turret = 0.5 soldier, technician + 2 turrets = 2 soldiers, or = 3 soldiers if technician Lvl7, …)
• remove the ability to pick up (ground / boxes / loot) 6+ large objects for 1 soldier (6+ Galiafs / Hell cannons)

IMHO, the capacity of the Backpack = 2 large + 2 small objects + In the hands.

[karoten2]

@noStas

The problem is that you deny (you call - do not do microman-t) my option, without explaining your option in detail. I am Good, all are Bad.
Present your version in the form of a plan like mine, so that everyone is clear and understandable.

Go ahead and put everything together.

I apologize, did not want to sound like this, would be more carefully next time
I do not want to make toxic atmosphere here

@noStas

With my concept, I wanted to solve the problems:

• a technician can take 6+ turrets on a mission, only himself. (1 turret = 0.5 soldier, technician + 2 turrets = 2 soldiers, or = 3 soldiers if technician Lvl7, …)
• remove the ability to pick up (ground / boxes / loot) 6+ large objects for 1 soldier (6+ Galiafs / Hell cannons)

IMHO, the capacity of the Backpack = 2 large + 2 small objects + In the hands.

What do you thing about to adjust a weight values? Turret would have more weight for example

With the resource boxes from Scavenging Missions, I do not see problem, if the soldier can carry them in the backback (but not in ready slots).

The old turn based Fallout (1997) came to my mind again - in that game, if You overpass the weight limit, Your character became immobile, so You -must- drop the items to continue
Does Phoenix Point has this mechanic? I noticed only reduced speed, what looks irrelevant

[karoten2]

@Lorifel

I have no problem with the current system. Why have an option to multiclass if you have no quick access to several main weapons?
Besides there is nothing preventing anyone from using the slots as they see fit.
E.g.: one for rifle, one for pistol or sword, and one for medikit or equipment.

I would compare a tactical battle in Phoenix Point to the Chess game - a mission is a chessboard, and soldiers are figures with certain roles (determines by equipped weapons)

If the soldier has access to several main weapons at same time, becomes a multi-role

And the charm of the chess game is in the rules, that figures have its role, with a multi-roles, it would be broken

[noStas]

If it was a Shooter or another game with one character, then having access to 3+ weapons at the same time could be smoothed out by the design / gameplay of the game.
But as soon as 4+ characters become available to you (and with an increase in the number it becomes worse) with the skills of the Terminator / Rambo, the game transforms into a “game that breaks its own rules.”

[noStas]

@karoten2

Your character became immobile, so You -must- drop the items to continue

A logical option, but Devs - Deliberately avoiding such a design.

@karoten2

With the resource boxes from Scavenging Missions, I do not see problem, if the soldier can carry them in the backback (but not in ready slots).

In the “first link” I promoted a realistic design, in which “resource cases” can only be carried by hand, “take-run, put-shoot”.

[Lorifel]

@karoten2

I would compare a tactical battle in Phoenix Point to the Chess game - a mission is a chessboard, and soldiers are figures with certain roles (determines by equipped weapons)

If the soldier has access to several main weapons at same time, becomes a multi-role

And the charm of the chess game is in the rules, that figures have its role, with a multi-roles, it would be broken

If we go to Chess analogy let me remind you, that Queen is exactly a multiclass of Rook + Bishop
Does it break the game of Chess?

[noStas]

@Lorifel

Does it break the game of Chess?

And if 4+ Queens? And this is not the maximum, you know.

[Lorifel]

@noStas

@Lorifel

Does it break the game of Chess?

And if 4+ Queens? And this is not the maximum, you know.

Yeah, that sounds crazy, but technically possible.
1 starting Queen + up to 8 Queens converted from Pawns

[noStas]

@Lorifel

1 starting Queen + up to 8 Queens converted from Pawns

Are you sure you are ready to play this “chess game” every day like a Meta game? This is happening now (for a very long time).

[Lorifel]

Yes. Freedom of hundreds different options is what makes Phoenix Point stand out in the genre.
If I want fixed options - I play Firaxis XCOM.
If I want a sandbox - I play Phoenix Point.

[noStas]

@Lorifel

If I want a sandbox - I play Phoenix Point.

That was the true answer.

@Lorifel

@noStas

And if 4+ Queens? And this is not the maximum, you know.

Yeah, that sounds crazy

[karoten2]

@Lorifel

If we go to Chess analogy let me remind you, that Queen is exactly a multiclass of Rook + Bishop
Does it break the game of Chess?

The Queen has a special role and value in chees…
But if we have 8 queens and have freedom to use a Rook like Bishop anytime, it would break the game, or decrease tactical element

@Lorifel

Yes. Freedom of hundreds different options is what makes Phoenix Point stand out in the genre.
If I want fixed options - I play Firaxis XCOM.
If I want a sandbox - I play Phoenix Point.

With 1 Primary Weapon slot, it is still possible to re-armed the soldier anytime, just for same “price”

[karoten2]

@noStas

@karoten2

Your character became immobile, so You -must- drop the items to continue

A logical option, but Devs - Deliberately avoiding such a design.

Simple solutions are best

@noStas

@karoten2

With the resource boxes from Scavenging Missions, I do not see problem, if the soldier can carry them in the backback (but not in ready slots).

In the “first link” I promoted a realistic design, in which “resource cases” can only be carried by hand, “take-run, put-shoot”.

I would need to see and try it in practice, for me I like complex things in games, but not overcomplex
The back pack is limited by weight and 6 slots, which works in my view

You mentioned a Turrets; honestly, I did not think about it before, but looks like a balance problem, which needs to fix; for me, a most easier solution looks to increase the Turret’s weight, or directly set limit of turrets per missions

[noStas]

@karoten2

I would need to see and try it in practice
for
The back pack is limited by weight and 6 slots, which works in my view

• 6 Turrets or 6 Weapons for “3AP-action” or 6 Crates, even if mixed.
• Against, 6 clips for the Sniper Rifle, occupying all 6 slots in the Backpack

Yes, put it to the test.

And try to guess which of the items Devs will redo? (not funny)

[kaptain]

I agree with you.

[sectoid_br]

But it’s not only inventory space, it’s weight too, you’re not considering that. You could argue the exact opposite of your argument, like:

“6 weapon clips weigh much less than 6 turrets, I should be able to carry 600 weapon clips in my backpack!”

It’s a simple system based on 2 limits, slots (not space) and weight. I do not think you should be limited in the amount of turrets you can carry. If you have the strength, go for it. If 6 is too much for any item, then make it heavier. For the special case of the turret, up the hard limit of the amount of turrets an engineer can CONTROL at the same time (which I think 2 would be a good number, currently it’s 4 because the remote control skill costs only 1AP).

[walan]

@sectoid_br

If 6 is too much for any item, then make it heavier.

The practice in PP is even more absurd in this regard. With the bionic Neutral Torso, all “somewhat” logical restrictions (weight) are simply thrown overboard.

http://wiki.phoenixpoint.com/Bionics

@sectoid_br

For the special case of the turret, up the hard limit of the amount of turrets an engineer can CONTROL at the same time (which I think 2 would be a good number, currently it’s 4 because the remote control skill costs only 1AP).

Then the whole absurdity is far from over: the skill “remote control” is only necessary for an additional action or e.g. to shoot in the same turn with turret. After the turret deploying and the next turn, 20 turrets would also shoot. And 20 is not that “excessive” at all.

1. Throwing the turret costs 1AP, but every soldier with an engineer second class could do this.
2. Then there is the possibility that the assault class takes further turrets with him and provides the engineer with further turrets for 0AP with the skill “Ready for Action”.

And I don’t think I need to mention how incredibly strong turrets are! With this you can e.g. do every Citadelle without any effort, but this is also due to the fact that the queen always runs towards the team in turn 2-3. As soon 5-10 turrets are ready (as said: 20 are also possible), it becomes a mess.

This is true for any difficulty level.

[noStas]

@sectoid_br

I should be able to carry 600 weapon clips in my backpack!

I don’t need 600, my suggestion was:
(and this is just a concept to check)

@noStas

ammunition in a stack of 3 pieces (of the same type and compact)

PS. Take a look here Improve healing mechanic, January 18 - 2020

[sectoid_br]

@walan

Then the whole absurdity is far from over: the skill “remote control” is only necessary for an additional action or e.g. to shoot in the same turn with turret. After the turret deploying and the next turn, 20 turrets would also shoot.

You’re right, I forgot about that, I’m not playing currently. You can manually fire with the turret once, then also use remote control any number of times. In my head this was “you must use control turret to fire manually, else the turret fires on its own like in the release version”. OK, very broken, but I think it would still be good to go about taking 20 turrets if you want to, if:

• turrets were not so OP
• manual control cost 2AP
• turret fires automatically and does not let you choose targets if you do not manually control it

Not sure if this is the best solution but seems ok. If you want to take a lot of turrets in a mission you still have to build them and they’re expensive, plus you still need to carry a lot of weight until you deploy them.

@noStas

PS. Take a look here

Voted up!