Good point!
I think this damage increase could even make Synedrion laser rifle a reasonable option again. Agains 20 armor target it is going to make 240 damage where Piranha hits for 300. 40 less damage with much higher accuracy, I’d call it a deal =)
I have to disagree: if the devs intended there to be any uncertainty, or risk, they would have opted for die roll checks.
Right now as, pantolomin says its just a tedious time consuming exercise to determine where, with 100% certainty, a soldier will be detected.
I would like to show some examples of how can you mix Infiltrators according to their perks (some minor equipment spoilers, mind you). These are best examples perk wise, but you should expect them to pop out if you recruit enough. I have 29 soldiers. 9 of them have thief perks. I don’t use any mods.
Exhibit 1: Boxer. No thief perk, still 80% stealth. Total of 140% more damage per shot. Total of 90% more accuracy, 115% with Quick Aim. Synedrion AR deals 72 dmg per shot. If I didn’t move him I can shoot 4x6x72 so total of 1728 dmg at effective range of 88 in a single turn.
Exhibit 2: Leodrack. 105% Stealth, virtually undetectable. Total of 130% more damage per shot, up to 229% due to berserker skills so 92-131 dmg per bullet. With adrenaline rush I can shoot up to 4 times in one turn. Lets assume I move him closer to target. That is 3x12x92 up to 3x12x131 so from 3312 to 4716 dmg per turn. Close range so some shots miss. Still overkill.
Exhibit 3: Demon. 105% Stealth, virtually undetectable. “Merely” 100% bonus damage per shot so Iconoclast deals “just” 800 dmg point blank. No unnecessary perks. Can activate Rapid Clearance and Dash 2 times in the same turn. This way he can run from one enemy to another and keep killing until WP hits 0. Enemies spawn in clusters at the beginning of the battle, so he can kill 2+ enemies before he needs to use dash, which means he will always have WP for another dash, and always have AP for another kill.
I would add that some players request limits that will involve that only infiltrators can use stealth, but you can build stealth soldiers without Infiltrator class.
With the special perk and infiltrators armors you get 75% stealth and it’s already allowing a quite stealthy soldier. It’s possible that genetics allow go up to 85% but I don’t know how.
That may well be, but it’s the x2 Infiltrator attack that makes them into an exploit.
@gauthel looking at your builds its clear to me that the problem is that there is no cost to the x2 attack, either before (no cost to enter stealth) %, or after it (stealth remains unbroken), and there should be both
Not sure about whether silent weapons should not break stealth though
Nope, I’m with Rainer on this. In my experience, JG doesn’t believe in handholding his players. I think you’re supposed to figure out how Stealth works by trial & error.
@MichaelIgnotus I agree with you on this. Between Phoenixpedia and a bit of trial and error stealth is easy to figure out. No need to make it easier, we just got used to games that tell and show us everything.
@VOLAND Exactly. My point (and if I understand correctly also your point) from the start is that giving any skill, in this case Sneak Attack, ability to do double damage for unlimited amount of attacks is seriously screwing the balance.
But it’s not limited to sneak. Berserker/Assault that starts game with 20% HP will do 80% more damage and keep on doing this with Rapid Clearance and Dash. Just a little bit of risk with overwatch and Return Fire but it’s still very possible to pull off the death run over your enemies.
But I digress. Stealth have to either be seriously limited or Sneak Attack have to go away.
Could well be, but it’s one of these cases where old school developers need to have consideration for old old school players who don’t have the time to do the math and tile counting…
Berserker/Infiltrator using a sniper rifle, where you deliberately wound him. Guess this would hurt.
Add Reckless and Sniperist to the mix.
@pantolomin quick math - at 10% health he will deal 448 dmg with NJ AP rifle, and Gollop only knows how much with Virophage rifle. Probably upwards of 500.
EDIT: Oh and Adrenaline Rush will allow him to shoot 4 times.
Yes, not to digress but the berserkers are basically absolutely useless unless made into an exploitive meta build (I started a thread on how to fix them here Berserkers and melee need fixing)
Isn’t the bonus to damage from blood lust limited to 50%?
EDIT:
Yes, that is it.
Nope. Game description states that damage and speed bonus go “up to double” so in theory maximum bonus would be 99% (since 100% means berserker is dead). It was consistent with my experiments with Berserkers.
Yes, that’s right, my bad.
In any case, I think the solution is to limit this bonus to damage received from during the mission and unhealed (otherwise you will have the “enrage the berserker protocol”: shoot him in the face on the first turn, then immediately apply medkit… Now he is ready to fight!")
EDIT: And the bonus should only apply to melee damage. And for this to be meaningful berserker and melee need to be fixed.
+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1
(big green Hulk emoji guy)
Stealth really needs some work and needs to be more self-explanatory.
Since the game doesn’t provide enough feedback on the battlefield about it…
Who was “Spotted”? Need to know cuz I’ll rather have that 1 get annihilated by the Bombard Chiron’s volley and not the whole squad lol
In Phoenix Point info and feedback is lacking everywhere you look, sadly.
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So it’s pointless disable stealth for soldiers without Infiltrator class.
A Sniper picking Infiltrator doesn’t do more damages than a Sniper picking Heavy with RB, or Berzerk with Adrenaline Rush, perhaps in average but not in one turn point of view.
What break rules is the Stealth itself, when unbreakable, or too easy to maintain.
This is a no fun limit, but how disable some clear exploit.
Totally disagree, and that’s multiple points.
Firstly melee is close to be fine like it is, it’s a shooter game, no need to make it something else than secondary tool, it will always be ridiculous melee combats compared to Fantasy tactics.
Berzerk damages bonus only apply to current HP.
There’s no need limit Bererk damages to enemy damages, friendly fire like a grenade or some barrel explosion won’t count and it’s unfair.
Doing this make lost an action to another soldier. It’s not that easy to tune the damages, and 50% damages bonus means 50% HP it’s a high risk taken, do it all along a combat doesn’t look like a wise choice, and it is only because stealth has no cap, even with 85% cap this would be a risked tactic to use more than for few turns.
I’ll check the suggestions thread, but on start, I disagree, it’s a shooter game, melee doesn’t need become a major tool, the amount of effort to challenge melee combats with Fantasy tactics is huge and not worth it.
There’s a problem of precision that counter balance such builds versus other with Sniper class. No 50% Precision bonus, no Rapid Fire option to increase precision. I have an Infiltrator Berzerk with Reckless and Sniperist, so I could give a try, but that would be 50 more global SP to spend on him, and again the lack of precision isn’t appealing. For now he is the only one I play as pure Infiltrator, and with a Melee, and obviously Berzerk skills. I use him to safe scout, and soften targets with poison and Armor Break.
This is no way linked to Stealth, but on how Chiron works, with sounds.
If the team didn’t moved much and the infiltrator did a dash that’s probably why, if not I don’t see why Chiron would choose an isolated target. Quote that it’s only sounds from moving that matter, not shooting. Moreover it’s quite possible that dash split in 4 moves attract less a Chiron.
I didn’t noticed, ok didn’t found myself the rules of detection range, but show them on the filed is a bit too simple, invisible soldier is enough powerful like that. Moreover each time you discover an enemy, it’s too late, you couldn’t know before you was in range to be detected.
EDIT:
Let forgot enemies not seen yet, the player explaining it was a lot of work to compute each distance, imagine all the work it is with multiple enemies on the filed with variable detection range. With time he will become an expert and will know without to compute, that’s skill selection, and it’s allowed only because it’s not too much hand guided.