Kaos Engines DLC feedback

Dear Phoenix Point

I feel the kaos engines DLC does not solve the fundamental issue of using vehicles. Being only able to shoot 4 times in a mission is not enough to offset the firepower of 3 soldiers

I would suggest the following changes

Get rid of the scrollable/infinite inventory accessible once inside a vehicle

Expand the base inventory from 9 to 12 to compensate

Give a maximum weight limit - say 50

The key issue with weapons is inability to reload. Perhaps a solution would be to allow us to make ammo or allow us to swap the weapon out with another unit. These weapons could cost 15 weight so only a max of 3 can be taken. This would require us to also pay for the additional unit so there is a material cost too

Give all vehicles option to hold 2 weapon slots like the kaos buggy to allow some flexibility in dealing with enemies (this can be an upgrade option at a cost of max weight of you want more balance). It can be a tradeoff with speed, armor or weight

Reloading or changing a weapon could cost 4AP

Another option could be to balance it around slots for vehicle equipment. Give us 4 or 5 slots in total and let us choose how many weapons, hull and track upgrades. We could choose both basic and advanced speed upgrades or just give it ammo. Or go no weapons, take armor and make it a bullet sponge to distract enemies

Also, there is no point in researching the vehicle advancement techs as you have to pay a lot to get the tech which you then have to build. I noticed it costs tech when you have to build it yourself but not when you buy it from the marketplace. Perhaps if upon buying the research you got one set of the 3 items that would make it more balanced. Another option would be to make the cost to manufacture them lower than the cost in the marketplace by 25-33%

Maybe the weapon could require being replenish ed after the mission so buying the basic and advanced vehicle advancements is more worthwhile - can’t replace the weapon if the tech isn’t researched yet


I Totally agree.
Another option would be to make it so the vehicle only uses two solider slots instead of three.
However I much prefer your approch. I never understood how a Scarab could carry an entire squad but not enougth ammunition to reload once.

At this point it feels like vehicles roles can easily be fulfilled by even a single solider - not quite as good, but not that much worse either -
A heavy with granade launcher, boom blast and a lot of willpoints does almost the same thing as a Scarab. The damage is not quite as high but not that much lower either. He is also more flexible due to having warcry, beeing able to seperatly aim the two shots and also he can be boosted via onslaught (he is an absolute brainiac as well since he is capable of bringing extra ammunition).
Synedrion snipers can Paralyze enemys just as well if not even better then an aspida and the heal just doesn’t feel worth it considering you have to give up three solider slots for it.
The armadillo seems like a decent option because it is tanky enought that you can kindof use it as cover. But every time I bring it it just feels like three soliders would’ve performed a lot better.

Technically not a vehicle but the mutog seems ok after the update. I know a lot of people dont like the unit all that much but it soaks up damage quite well while staying alive with its heals and it doesn’t suffer from the same problems other vehicles do, since it doesn’t need to reload. (The aspida also doesn’t need to reload but it just dies way to quickly and cant be healed)
Since the mutog only needs two solider slots now I can see value in bringing one. However I’d only recommend that if you are using the Anu aircraft or two other aircrafts so you’d have 8 slots in total.

I still love the idea of beeing able to bring vehicles into missions and It can kindof be justified in the early stages of the game because soliders just aren’t that strong yet but in the lategame there is just no reason you’d choose a vehicle over three of your other soliders which seems kindof sad.

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One way to solve this vehicle issue is to introduce new special type of missions which would require the use of a vehicle. Mobile raid, reconaisance, convoy or something like that.

Another option is to be able to assign your troops as vehicle crew - driver, engineer, gunner. Vehicle crew is considered part of the vehicle and earns xp when you use a vehicle in a mission.

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You make the same mistake as many other players in this game. You assume that vehicle should replace soldiers.

No. Vehicles have their own purpose and it is not firepower which should replace soldiers. Think for a moment what you would use them for and then use them for that. :wink:

Everything else is an argument based on this false assumption so there is no need to comment on that.


100% true. Yet separate question is if vehicles fill their role well and do they offset lack of three soldiers. :slight_smile:

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For me yes. In missions where I don’t need to clear the area vehicles just make most of them trivial. :slight_smile:

I agree with Yokes, some missions are easier with a vehicle, for example, the Alchemist, indepedent mission,

that VIP surrounded, with vehicle is two turns mission

You can use exactly the same reasoning to claim all vehicle weapons should be removed. But the thing is, even if vehicles are not meant to replace soldiers, that does not imply that vehicles do not need more firepower or more ammo to be viable, or something. I find this a non argument. Also a bit dishonest since they literally replace 3 soldiers on your squad if you chose to use them.

Vehicles take the space of 3 soldiers. And are objectively far less valuable. The main purpose of this DLC was to make vehicles more viable. But they are still far less usefull in most cases than using 3 soldiers. I find this just objectively true, so I don’t think the DLC fully succeded in what was trying to do.

Also the fact that it is posible to find a couple of missions where vechicles are very useful does not change the fact that they are in fact less useful than the soldiers they replace in almost every mission. So they are still not worth the investment or the space.

Would replace your gun for one than is less useful in 99% of the cases for the trade of of being more useful on the remaining 1%. I dont think so. Also, the only way to know you are making a good choice carrying a vehicle, is to memorize the few missions wehere it is actually the case or to be lucky.

In my case, as soldiers are always useful, but there is always a very good chance that bringing a vehicle to a mission will drop significanty your chances of success, and because I do not know in advance. In general, not bringing a vehicle is always a better tactical decission for me.

I think this is a problem.


I will disagree. Because of few reasons:

  1. Vehicles are super powerful early game. I would say that they are even game changer. First you have something really powerful which rips through almost any enemy. And for second your remaining soldiers (3 with Manticore) will get XP boost really fast (a lot faster than when sending 6 of them).

  2. Then vehicles are useful with many story missions, many DLC missions, and every scavenge mission. It is a lot more than 1% of missions. They let you transport troops fast, fulfill objective, and get out. Just don’t use them at haven defence, and alien base missions if you think that they are not enough.

  3. They are a lot cheaper in production and maintenance than trio of soldiers. So they can effectively be used as a temporary replacement when you don’t have enough soldiers to fill next dropship. At least until you will find this replacement of 3 soldiers.

  4. And finally you can use them as a “mining operations officer” sitting in dropship, while hovering over ancient site, when you use all your soldiers in other places. :slight_smile:

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Vehicles are useful in many story and DLC missions.

Yes, but those are the missions you need to have played first to know that.

Also yes vehicles are strong in the early game, and useless later. Which is the problem, cause what you need to do in the early game is to use your soldiers to gain experience so they don’t get behind.

This is another thing people who knows how all missions play out in advance will take advantage of, and everybody else will be frustrated by. Another thing the people who studies the game and its meta will complain for being to easy, and everyone else will be mocked for struggling with.

So again, non of what you said takes away the fact that soldiers are always useful and mutons are vehicles are useless in mid to late game, lairs and pandoran underground missions, base defense missions, many story and dlc missions, ancient missions and in general are far less useful than soldiers in haven defense misions which constitude alone most game missions.

Sorry, that is still not a reasonable way to balance a game. Vehicles need to viable not in speciffic and scavenge missions, or as a trick that experienced players can use. They need to be veiable in regular missions in a way that can be planned for, even without previous experience in the game.


This. Exactly this.

Also, from the DLC description:

And it doesn’t change much, if anything, in the vechicle usefulness. Like Yokes said, if you know (most likely in advance) where to use them efficiently: they will perform great; but they will do so regardless of customizations because they bring nothing new to the table. You still can’t use them outside of usage they’ve had before.

This DLC failed to make vechicles use more natural and common. :person_shrugging: I think it missed the point of having vechicles DLC in a first place.


Is a vehicle worth 3 early game soldiers in firepower and overall efficiency? Yes.
Is a vehicle cheaper to produce then 3 fully geared soldiers? Yes. A lot.
Is a vehicle a good tank/scout/support hybrid unit in mid to late game? Yes.

Is a vehicle worth 3 mid- to end-game soldiers in firepower and overall efficiency? No

Is a vehicle worth the 15 to 36 Skill Points per mission you are missing out on by using it instead of soldiers? Never.

As long as the SP system is working as it currently does using vehicles is purely for fun, from the point where you have soldiers to fill the mission slots. Never efficiency.

So we can agree that vehicles are less interesting than soldiers. :wink: Do you always have enough soldiers to send full dropships to missions, hmm? :slight_smile: I say that they are still useful and really handy in some missions and in some strategic situations.

To not bother you with prolonged discussion, I can agree that DLC failed to make them more interesting in late game.

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With or without DLC vehicles do exactly same role, early game nukers if you manage salvage one or build one. They can also tank a lot early game. You take them every 1/10 missions for first month, and less and less as game goes on. TBH I love them and use them way more than I should and vehicle teams are outperformed by non-vehicle teams by miles. With DLC i got nice stuff which I don’t use as mid to late game you have no use for bigger nukes from SCARAB, they can not tank or scout as efficient and can not sustain prolonged fights. I hoped that DLC would fix issue of midgame vehicle usage, it did not. So for my feedback, it is worthless DLC which provides nothing but fresh layer of paint over still niche unit that falls off really fast…

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