I'm little sick of AI cheats

I’m not sure, on one side normal soldiers are almost spotted the whole time, so the worms don’t really cheat, they simply know where they are. On the other side I have sometimes seen worms not alarmed when they not land close to an Infiltrator and then also don’t move straight to them. Though most of the time fired worms reveal Infiltrators because they land close enough.


Since this is the behavior for most enemies I would expect it the same for worms too. My point is, AFTER the stuck worm fix, has this changed? I’m bringing this up just because the fix is to calculate a path to our soldiers.

Athrons place shield at zero ap cost

Often in the wrong direction :slightly_smiling_face:

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It’s not zero AP, as it’s non-zero, as they need to have some movement left, as it’s used by them as the end turn -action that the normal humans use as standby -action.

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Agreed, but non the less, does not look fair to our shield use (as other complains on AI being able to do something we cant)

That needs an AI improvement, but they will never be safe :slight_smile: Angles do matter :slight_smile:

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I don’t think this qualifies as a cheat at all because it’s different equipment, with different characteristics, fulfilling same or similar function. It’s like saying that Crab MG is a cheat because it’s different from Deceptor, or viceversa.

For me a cheat is something like when player casts MC he gets to control the target immediately, while the AI casting the same MC only get to move the target a turn after :slightly_smiling_face:. But I don’t see anybody complaing about that particular cheat :wink:

Or how human enemies can’t use high level skills…

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Enemy MC unit has super high mobility and it is super tough and has 100% guaranteed chance to MC even when unit has max WP, so it’s rather fair that player has a chance to counter this move.

Human enemies have other cheats, like for example their grenade throw range is much greater than players. I’ve seen many bandits throwing grenades twice the range of my units.

Enemy human snipers can have expert marksmen skill which can be really dangerous and it is high level skill. Forgotten/Anu berserkers also employ the berserker skill that makes disabled body parts working.

The accuracy of all enemy AI is also a very very suspicious.

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Simple rule: no equipement use should cost 0 AP or 0 WP :slight_smile:

Truly :slight_smile: Also, panicking seems to work a bit different, I often feel aliens recover way more WP - get back to action faster. But OK, sometimes 1 panic turn is enough to make havoc

They recover more because they have more. Recover is what 50%? Stander mid game soldier has ~12WP so it will recover something around 6WP, while enemies have 20WP up to 30WP in late game so they will recover much more. Their amount of WP is rather insane, but I guess this counteracts the initial make all enemies panic on turn 1 when the game launched.

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I wish we had 30 WP scale too :slight_smile: Another argument that end game enemies feel overpowered no matter the player skill - simply they have too much of everything (on every unit class) WHILE our character development stalls - either scales are already full, rewards in SP are the same while end powers demand a lot OR new recruits are no matter the equipment - too fragile for new classes.

That is why I argue for slower - class per class - mutations instead of “big jumps” as it is now (all classes of enemies bumped)

This really doesn’t explain why player gets to immediately control the target.

I’m not saying that it should be necessarily changed, just that this is an example where the exact same skill works differently for player and for the AI, and to the benefit of the player, not the AI.

Grenade throwing distance is STR * 0.6, and the player can increase it far more than the AI, with higher strength and quarterback + boom blast.

It’s a level 5 skill. How about the human AI using Mark for Death on your operatives? (and stacking it too :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:) or Adrenaline Rush? Or Sneak Attack?

Only if they have the ignore pain skill, just like the player.

Honestly, I have seen 0 evidence of this. I have seen the AI land shots with sniper rifles across large distances, and I have seen them fail to land them across large and small distances, just like the player. For me the test is Poacher shooting at heavy in heavy armor: Hera will only do paralyze damage if the shot lands on the head, and what I see regularly is some shots hitting and some shots missing at the distance where I would expect them to. Unless someone can dig in the code and find evidence that the game messes with RNG, I’m satisfied that the explanation is RNG.


X-COM also had this mechanic :wink: and MC was far brutal for the player in early games where AI just could MC without LOS.


Would not mind enemy having some of the abilities per species, and not for all present on map. Sneak Attack is certainly used by Synd infiltrators :slight_smile:

It would be best to have it balanced. We dont expect neither super humans or super aliens, seems people love realistic engines and pure strategy of human mind as challenge

On the other hand, Pandorans can MC an unit without LoS, they do not need higher WP than the target to MC it and dont need to spend as many WP as the target WP to MC it. So they can keep MC much longuer. Additionally as almost all Pandorans have more WP than any of your soldiers, they are all inmune to MC unless they spend their WP or are weakened first, and all your soldiers are vulnerable to it.

So overall, MC is heavy balanced in favor of the AI, not the player.

And yes, I would qualify this as cheating.

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I haven’t seen this in a very long time, like before 1.7 maybe. As @MadSkunky said elsewhere, it would be nice to see a screenshot of this happening, because examination might show that actually there was LOS or that it was a bugged piece of scenery.

They most certainly do.

The cost to initiate MC is the same for all: current WP of target. The cost of maintaining MC each turn depends on target: 1 WP for worms, 2 WP for humans and Arthrons, 3 WP for Tritons, 5 WP for Sirens and Chirons, 10 WP for Scylla.

That is true, but the Pandorans lose many more WP through morale loss (because penalty to morale = cost to maintain MC, except in case of worms) and they are much more likely to lose them: what is the KIA ratio of PX vs Pandorans? I think for me it’s 1:30 (and I’m playing Legend with self imposed ironman).

Siren is a specialist unit, the large pool of WP it has is all that she has going for her. What you seem to be implying is that any assymetry in the units available to the AI and to the player that gives one side an edge for some tactics at the expense of others is unfair.

My (tentative) definition of ‘unfair’ would be that the exact same item/skill works differently depending on who is using it.

My only big complain is their success ratio that does not input WP strength of MCed target, like we can fail. I would prefer stronger sirens that have less WP and have to rely on psychic screams and arm attacks (or some new type of attack) more then solely on mind control.

Its true those “impossible MCs” seems to be fixed, however sirens are still units able to run open, MC unit and hide in cover, making takover quite hard. I would add some AP cost to their mind control to balance.

Also, I believe one siren can still mind control few units, which was supposed to be fixed. This combined with mentioned above makes them a bit of game spoiler too :slight_smile:

This makes MC less sense for a player. I do understand and like WP reward-punish system, but MCing enemy unit has way more sense when there are plenty as opossed when you have killed the most. I would prefer to have skill changed with Priest to something more usable in battlefield, like mass panic a la Terror sentinel :slight_smile:

Surely, problem is that easily have it almost always :slight_smile: Then why should not we have WP above 20 open? I know, because we would abuse altogether skill system to the bone, but it creates imbalance in MC mechanics far too much to alien side.

Some “likely not to succeed” like with shots, would make it way fairer.

In the 1.9, syrens MCed my units from inside a building with no windows. So im pretty sure is still in effect. It also does not help that the perception range of the pandorans is often much higher that the players.

They suffer from morality loss cause they are more units and get killed more. That is not a disadvantage, but a consequence of adhering to the same rules as the player. The fact that following the same rules is seen as unfair and needs to be compensated with an extra advantage is the very definition of cheating.

I dont think so, but I will grant you that none of us have tested this particular. Regardless if the MC ability of the Pandorans does not pay the WP of the target to MC it, is still unfair to the same effect. And I have positively tested this.

Pandorans do not pay this cost. You can check the WP of a Siren after MCing one of your units with 30 WP, and see their WP full. At least I have seen it everytime I checked. Cant tell if this is a bug or intended, but this happens.

My point is that contrary to their MC ability, which is extremely useful. The MC ability the player has is totally underwhelming and barely useful in most situations.

PS: I also have been often a bug were an enemy unit in direct line of sight with 0 or very low WP, in <10 tiles range is not a valid targed for MC.

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They don’t mass panic, they use:
Psychic Scream that removes 5 WP from all enemies in a 24 tile radius, costs 10 WP to cast

A Priest can do almost the same with the Screaming Head mutation (I never used it, so don’t ask how effective it is or how much WP it is reducing):
Psychic Scream (3AP, 4WP) - Scream, reducing Will Points of all enemy units in an 8 tile radius.
Of course in a much shorter range and IMO it cost too much AP. With lower AP cost I would say it is on par with the Terror Sentinel because a Priest can move to compensate the shorter range, the Sentinel can’t.

Only Tritons with Double Perception ability have high perception (60), the most other have lower perception than humans (25/30 vs 35) and no armour to increase that.
A PP soldier with equipment to optimize perception can have up to 70 perception with Farsighted and also 60 without.

True is that this is not really relevant because anything that is spotted is it for the whole team, but this is true for both sides (otherwise snipers would have a big problem).


I would bet that it’s a problem with a specific scenery asset. If anyone gets this, please F10, and, if you can, take a screenshot and post it here so it can be called attention to.

I disagree. In all assymetric strategy games strengths and weaknesses are unevenly distributed by definition.

Every time that a Siren has MCed one of my units I have seen the floating - x WP above it, just as with my own Priests. I have not checked the Siren info screen to see whether it was subtracted, I will next time.

The only times I have seen a Siren not paying any cost to MC is when the operative has 0 WP. I’m also absolutely positive that a Siren can’t MC a character with more WC.

Again, if anything like Sirens MCing without paying WP happens, that’s clearly a bug.

Very much disagree :slightly_smiling_face:

First, Priests can actually have a lot of WP because of the special heads, but even without that it’s only a matter of reducing the WP of the target before MCing it, and there are a few ways to do it (easiest to disable the head first).

This might be because there is LOS, but no “line of fire”. My guess is that just as with direct fire weapons, with MC there has to be LOF from a specific spot (head?).

There is already an AP cost; it costs 1 AP just as for the Priest.

Come on, you get a full turn to do something to the Siren before she gets to move your unit. Is it really necessary to make her stand in the open to facilitate it?:slightly_smiling_face:

Absolutely not, no RNG for this please :slightly_smiling_face:

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