Heavy armor... what do we think?

[harcagnel]

This is not complaint but just a concept consideration. Perhaps someone can give me an alternate consideration.

Here are might thoughts on heavy armor in regard to the heavy class to start.

1. The image of heavy tank walking through the battle field is cool, however, because assaults typically lead the charge that does generally happen. Instead assaults generally are the ones tanking fire.

2.Being slower than assaults’, heavies look to get a good vantage point so they can contribute. This leads to developer giving them a jetpacks, which furthers the tower camping style of play because it prevents them from shooting and moving on the same turn.

3. Realizing they are not taking fire in the tower back behind my assaults, but can’t hit a thing because of poor accuracy, The first thing I end up doing is replacing the head and legs with Acheron sniper armor (or the best sniper armor I can get) so I can actually hit things. So no they looking like power lifters with tiny heads who skip leg day … but they hit stuff… so cool.

4.The second thing I do is multi-class them to sniper for quick aim so I can use all my action points, Master Marksman because I can use the improved aim from my tower more than 10 spaces away from the action to avoid wasting a turn with the jetpack, and Weak Spot so I can strip of that armor if I don’t out right kill and enemy with the first shot to ensure my extra aim second shot at least really hurts.

5. Now that I have a Heavy/Sniper generally just give it a sniper rifle, and mix my sniper into heavy giving him a heavy weapon too, this is because the have similar desires and the merge gives my sniper quick access to high ground and access to rage burst for taking down the bigger enemies.

This seems like the natural progression of the design. I completely understand the mixing assaults with heavies (grenadiers), berserkers with heavy (better melee, Adrenaline Rush heavy cannon, ignore pain immunity to mind control), and the Infiltrator with heavy (because a sneak attack with heavy weapons is just good fun) but then I don’t need or want the jetpack with any of these builds. Assault grenadiers want Wardog for taking hits without accuracy or speed penalties, Berserkers want Acolyte chest for +2 speed, and infiltrators wand Acheron or Styx depending on how I want to play them and what heavy weapon I choose.

When do I ever want a jet pack with 40 armor and -10 to hit? The Heavy Tower Sniper would be better off with a lighter armored jetpack that had a reduced accuracy penalty.

So I do use the Anvil-2 chest armor… but never on heavies. I used it for shotgun assaults who don’t care about the jetpack or the -10 to hit but really REALLY want the 40 armor so that if they point blank an Arthron with machine gun armor and it does die or take the arm they don’t immediately get wasted.

Would these not make more since? …
Wardog chest with 40 armor, -15 stealth, and -5 accuracy (I would be happy with a similar change for all wardog armor)
Anvil-2 chest 20 armor, -15 stealth, -0 accuracy, and the jetpack

Thoughts? Let us discuss!

[Lorifel]

I agree with most of it =)
You may also want to look at this thread:

What weapons do you give your soldiers with -30% penalty from Heavy armour?

So, during moonlaunch defense (a lot of fun but so many bugs lol) I used some more focus on mind crush, and yes multiple death bring back more WP but it’s diminishing, 3/2/1/nothing. You’ll argue 6 still refund the skill. Pretty sure many players in this forum want nerf it like with an AP cost. I don’t know perhaps, but you can’t do such jetpack jump without a huge preparation to lower enemies Hp before, this is work and planing, not just a push win button.

I usually use my heavily armored Heavy this way:
Jetpack to an enemy → Bash with heavy weapon → eat Return Fire if needed due to 40 armour → War Cry to cripple the enemy and his friends for the next turn → if possible, get 1 AP from Rally and hide in a more or less safe place

[Mythago]

Using corners to hide and killing enemies before they have a chance to shoot are so much better that I rarely use heavy armor. And if I do, it’s only the chest piece for jet pack/mounts. For almost any situation, I prefer having +speed or +accuracy.

One obvious problem is that jump jet uses 3AP and heavy weapons use 3AP. You can’t do anything except weapon bash if you want to move any meaningful distance. This had lead to me using for example Hel Cannon solely on a sniper/heavy with full sniper armor. It’s so much better to actually hit something from afar and stay relatively safe from enemy fire than to close the distance and rely on heavy armor before you have a chance to shoot.

In short: I use heavy abilities for dual class soldiers, but almost never use any pieces of heavy armor.

[holce2]

The problem I see with heavy armor is:
-You don’t have the mobility the be close enought to fire without having to wait one turn and be vulnerable. Having enough armor to compensate that might make them too tough.

-You don’t have enough aim to fire at mid range. An athron at 12-15 meters need to be hit a 100% with the hell canon. You need the stun to not be dead next turn. (The NJ armour may protect enough but the basic one is not enough) Before the nerf to aim it was posible. Now you have 80-90% at best. 10-20% to have a dead soldier is inacteptable. You will be dead before having empty your ammunition.

Heavy armor should have -10 to aim but also +10-15 to aim with heavy weapon. The heavy armour should be a good armour to use heavy weapon. The low effective range is enough to make the heavy a mid range fighter. The cost of the jetpack does not allow the heavy to be an effective close range fighter.

[Mythago]

@holce2

Heavy armor should have -10 to aim but also +10-15 to aim with heavy weapon. The heavy armour should be a good armour to use heavy weapon. The low effective range is enough to make the heavy a mid range fighter. The cost of the jetpack does not allow the heavy to be an effective close range fighter.

This sounds like a viable idea. The heavy chest armor could enable soldiers to use heavy weapons without difficulty, whereas another soldier in full sniper gear would have trouble handling the 30kg piece of machinery instead of a sniper rifle.

The only problem with this is that heavy weapons pretty much become mounted weapons. I’m not sure it’s an actual problem, I just mean that the difference between the two is not as big. You can “mount” one heavy weapon on your arms and another on your back.

I have a feeling that the lack of mobility would still be a problem, but not as big problem since you should be able to hit things from more than 1 square away.

[harcagnel]

that is not a bad strategy and one that I have covered. It would work beast with the Heavy/Berserker which I have not used owing to why… but still the best use of the design I have seen. Heavies Brawler mixed with the berserker melee proficiency and amor break to make the best of the hit, while close quarters evade could make taking the return fire even better… I like it. It seems super niche for that to be the intended design for heavies though. If Golem-B was for that and Anvil-2 was redone as I suggested for … well… every other use of heavy I would be happy with that.

[harcagnel]

Option 1, If they took off the jetpack, and removed the -2 to movement, and gave it an aim penalty for anything not a heavy weapon it would be a viable close range fighter. You would use your first turn to put for AP into getting out front or when no enemies are in sight, then move 1AP and shoot in the open walking down the middle of the road with no cover while assaults flank… Kind of what I did for Wardog above.

Option 2, keep the jetpack, and remove the aim defiance and take some armor in exchange. Then you tower snipe as you do now, but suck less if your not multi-classed sniper. Which is kind of what I did with the Anvil-2 armor above.

I don’t really see a third option except Lorifel’s flying berserker fist, which is cleaver but means you ever use Heavy in heavy armor for 1 out of 6 multi-class options and you could still do that with my suggested anvil-2 change because beserker has close quarters evade and could still possibly survive with less armor.

[jrhebert]

There are two problems for heavy armor as I see it:

1: the price paid in speed and accuracy for marginal additional protection isn’t worth it. Once you’re regularly facing the evolved arthron MG (50 per shot, shred 2), heavy armor just means you die a little less quickly. A significant speed reduction totally makes sense for heavy armor, but the huge accuracy penalty does not. A better solution would be to keep (or even increase) the speed penalty, significantly reduce or eliminate the accuracy penalty, but add a perception penalty. (In all honesty, having a more stable platform improves your aim.)

2. The arthron evolved MG is just ridiculous. It makes heavy armor almost pointless. It’s basically a highly mobile anti-tank weapon. As a person who uses heavy armor anyway just because I like the look and feel, it bugs me that it lacks survivability because of the primary weapon facing it.

I like double-classing with assault because RF with the cannon gives those damn arthrons a taste of their own medicine and dash is a real tactical benefit. Then I give them a shotgun (iconoclast) for some extra mobility for reliable close-quarters kills. War Cry is a lifesaver.

Heavy armor pays by far the steepest price in debuffs for the least benefit of any armor.